The end of british democracy?
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Re: The end of british democracy?
For one thing, that's nothing to do with "democracy" per se. For another, linking a news article and saying "Discuss!" does not a good thread make.
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Too late sucker - I've written three paragraphs, an hour later, but it's still more worthwhile.
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'I shot Democracy'
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If and when democracy meets its ultimate demise it will come from the left and not from the right. Discuss
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Whilst there may very well be a real threat to democracy by using these powers, they are quite right to do so, this is a perfect example of how and when martial power has been implemented in a way that is both preventative and policing.
This is to say, it has been used to find terrorist, which none can say do not exist, after the atrocities that have been caused by such terror groups. The government is well within its right to make sure, that the safety of the travelers, in airport, the police officers, and the protesters themselves. They do this by making sure that no hidden weapons, be them conventional weapons, such as an axe, or chainsaw - very conventional, is hidden in the crowd and additionally unconventional such as a bomb. The searches are an extreme part of our lives now, but they are a necessary evil in these circumstances, better a few people gathering and being searched than a few people gathering and bloodshed. On the other hand the power is being used in a most inappropriate way, but for the greater good, and as we all know the greater good is just that. Needless to say that it is the terrorists themselves that have caused the death, if at all, of democracy, not the government. |
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You feel that it is appropriate for a large group of people to get together in protest, and not be protected?
Im afraid to say your not at many meetings... We are using the powers defensively, and taking the initiative here, needless to say i doubt you would not hesitate to thank the government, had the found a terrorist with a big bomb attached to him that would have killed everyone there, and when we stop taking these matters seriously, such as relaxing the tight grip on security that will lead to ever more chances for death and destruction. I like to have my rights as much as anyone else, but even i see the need for such measures. |
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This is as much about protecting the protestors as the Iraq War was about bring democracy to Iraq, i.e. not at all, though I think you might question that. Quote:
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Re: The end of british democracy?
Not meaning to overdramatize, but during World War 2 we killed around 51,000,000 people for freedom and democracy. Now they're taking it away from us because terrorists killed.. how many people exactly?
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I agree, on whims, but there are legal issues here that are just as relevant to stopping this, and it at least i believe that there is merit, though i can agree there are indeed many cases where corruption has been the downside of this, and thats what we must be vigilant against if the system is to work. Quote:
I have no doubt that there was a selfish agenda on the cards for both governments in this matter, but this is politics. Quote:
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There are many many valid viewpoints to this argument, i am giving you mine, and attacking my views is not a method which will make them any less valid, i did not say that We want to remove all rights and move to some, as of yet, non existent dictatorship led future - I believe that taking control and key government figures are what is needed in this country, Britain, and nothing less will be of any good. Simply stated: "Evil prevails when good men do nothing." Funnily enough you may see the government elected by the people, evil, and that you yourself are indeed good. But then, EVERYTHING is based on perception. |
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This is not necessarily a removal of rights, or an infringement on them, but merely can be seen as an extension of them, why must I not be able to be safe, why must I live in fear? These are my rights, and by the mere fact that some people who could, or could not be dangerous, being allowed to roam freely in regards to stop and search, then that is an infringement on me is it not? By doing nothing i have been affected, and so have millions (possibly) of other people by affecting these minority of searches and stopping and holdings, they are protecting the rights of the free people themselves. I again stress these are perceptions. |
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Whilst you may have no fear of terrorism, other people do have their rights too, and just as you so valiantly cry about your own, so too can we wrong brainways people cry. It is a basic right that no man, or woman, may live without bodily harm coming to them, as such it is a valid point to make that it is just and right to expect that we can live without worrying about it every minute, and tbh and true, it makes me feel much happier, and safe, every step we take towards a more secure country. This includes the crack down on terrorism, for you right brainways... Quote:
Ethics play a large point in this, but it is ethical to stop a bomb before it explodes, and personally as long as only a minority of people are hurt, rights infringed, by doing so as compared to the eventual casualty list then so be it. |
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Innocent until proven guilty if one of the pillars of the legal system and you have just dismissed it out of hand. Quote:
How can a system where people can be rounded up and jailed without charge ever 'work'? Even now, Gorden Brown wants to extend the limit to 90 days. In the future someone will wish to extend it further, no doubt. It is the essence of a totalitarian government; to lock up people the leaders consider 'undesirables' and call them 'terrorists.' There are loads of examples where this is the case. To display this point; see how many wars you can find where the invading party were not acting in 'self-defence' of in the 'defence' of those whose country they were bombign to ****. Quote:
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Re: The end of british democracy?
Allow me to paste something for the population of GD to ponder over!
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Just as a bit of social research, could I asked you to give a bit of detail on your ethnicity and roughly whereabouts in Scotland you live? |
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There really are no advocates for me?
Sheesh, scary thought. i mean we as a global we those who are of my viewpoint, much as you mean everyone including me??? Quote:
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I myself will be subject to these exact same laws that 'infringe' on my rights, and i see the logical and undeniable reasons behind them. Quote:
I am merely operating on what i feel would be a much more safe environment, we have to impose these laws based on the actions of a minority. In this much we are defending ourselves, and we do not torture, and undeniably WE ARE NOT YET in a police state, and insofar as we can never truly tell the future we don't know where the current affairs such as these terror laws will lead us. Though i do take your arguments of historic examples of abused power, we may not end there, you cant say for sure. Additionally, as the rights of millions are at stake based on these arguments, may i point out that these powers are in place to protect people such as yourselves? and the people you love? Why would you consider a move towards increased security a bad one? Until we can positively identify bad people based on sight, we must take measures to protect ourselves from them, that is why the law exists, and the laws are created and passed by a minority selected by us. Us, to clarify, is the entire nation. Quote:
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In your world you can take this the wrong way and go on a rampage killing people to get your message across, but don't worry the government cant make sure you don't do that, you made sure of it by demolishing protection of the innocent and replacing it with the protection of evil. Its this much that leads me to trust the people that have been selected by the nation to lead us. I would rather trust them, than a group of people there to demonstrate against something that benefits all of society. |
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Why is it unscientifically correct to feel fear of something that has happened, and been threatened against me and my family? I don't consider it illogical to fear that which is proven is on my doorstep. May i point out, that you admit to sacrificing my rights in favor of someone else? what makes you any better than those that are supporting this power. I need not tell you any details about myself, however i live in central Scotland, i am white and i am studied to a university standard, i was born in Scotland, I have been abroad, i have many ethnic friends of varying back grounds, and i completely agree with the terror laws. [edit] Tho may i point out, this does not in anyway affect the views or arguments i have put forward, and will only lead to your discrimination of me based on those details, regardless of my ethnicity my views are true.[/edit] |
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No it's not. |
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i am glad to see that i chose the right side to advocate, as there is certainly no one else prepared to argue this case, and plenty of you to argue against it.
I am enjoying this debate. |
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??? good argument. Race Relations Act 1976 check it out. Quote:
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By the way, when you say that we don't torture or round up people....Guantanamo. |
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In any case, as we're talking about making or repealing laws it seems somewhat surreal to be basing the debate on what is legal and illegal. Holding someone for 90 days without charge was illegal 7 years ago, does that invalidate your position? You also have ignored the first part of my reply to you, which I find particularly amusing as most of the rest of your post commits exactly the same error as I was pointing out. Quote:
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Guantanamo is U.S. Government, not what i am advocating, which is the british democracy, so... Your wrong. but hey i dont read topics of threads either... |
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I see no 1984-style thought police. |
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And finally, allow me to summarise our position with yet another quote. Quote:
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Key part of this being #2, as a racist you must, without fail be discriminatory towards other people, acting upon that discrimination is a crime, i apologise for not more thoroughly clearing that subject up. Quote:
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Or do i need to get the definition of that out too. |
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Indeed... |
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Firstly i would like to say i really like your post :)
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As for definition three, it has a separate url, if you would please pay attention, and is a definition of terrorise. the two are linked but not the same. Quote:
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is that all your implying? I merely point out one of those aspects is affected. I don't get where your argument is in that. [edit] I loved the summary, but can i point out the statement was intended on a little added security, not the amount which is provided by these new laws? i can still see the point tho[/edit] |
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You were at the start of the thread. Quote:
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To keep things in perspective, these laws are being used against people protesting the expansion of an airport. Quote:
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Appealing to emotion is not a good argument. No, wait. It's not an argument at all. Quote:
When Putin passes these laws they're because he's a criminal. When it happens in our country it's 'legitimate.' Quote:
That you feel the government actually represents you as an individual is rather sweet, but naive. Quote:
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How is protecting people who have done nothing wrong protecting evil? Quote:
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Although you could have done more Oh you're so naive yet so How could this be done Your such a smiling sweetheart Oh and your sweet and pretty face In such an ugly way Something so beautiful That everytime I look inside I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking True or false it may be She's still out to get me I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking True or false it may be She's still out to get me I may say it was your fault Cause I know you could have done more Oh you're so naive yet so How could this be done By such a smiling sweetheart Oh and your sweet and pretty face In such an ugly way something so beautiful Everytime I look inside I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking True or false it may be She's still out to get me I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking True or false it may be She's still out to get me How could this be done By such a smiling sweetheart Oh you're so naive yet so Such an ugly thing Someone so beautiful And everytime you're on his side I know she knows that I'm not fond of asking True or false it maybe be she's still out to get me And I know she knows that I'm not fond of asking True or false it maybe be she's still out to get me Just don't let me down Just don't let me down Hold on to your kite Just don't let me down Just don't let me down Hold on to your kite Just don't let me down Just don't let me down Hold on to this kite Just don't let me down |
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*argumentum ad verecundiam ftw! |
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[quote=All Systems Go]You've already accepted the modern government lies, kills and tortures for its own purposes, is it so unlikely that they'll do it here?[quote] correction i have seen that prior governments lie, books covers etc, you cant tell till its done. Quote:
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[quote=All Systems Go]Take a look at some of the legislation passed. It's all pretty restrictive. Just because you don't feel it every moment doesn't mean it's not happening.[quote] agreed, i see the restrictions, and acknowledge why they are needed. Quote:
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[quote=All Systems Go]lol. Trust in politicians. lol[quote] better them than you. Quote:
no idea what this is. |
Re: The end of british democracy?
To qualify as an authority, the individual must be generally recognized by peers in the same field when the peers hold a similar view. As of yet, you are not ad verecundiam, unless there is something i am unaware of. Even if you argue that your a better known person in this community that IS Argumentum ad Populum...
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whose troll account is bradleykins? and if I scan up how many of you has he made a fool of so far in this thread?
EDIT - i'm guessing horn given this is pretty amature trolling. my god people - look at yourselves! |
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you automatically assume im just here trolling? some people do actually know me truthfully not very well, just ebcause i rarely participate ont he forums, ie the acc just being signed up, that doesn't make me fake... Thanks for the warm welcome tho. |
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Just because something is called and 'anti-terror law' does not automatically make it good nor something that will reduce terrorism. I also disagree that doing something wildly innappropriate and damaging to the whole country is better then donig nothing. How about this as a radical suggestion: stop supporting government policies which actively increase the liklihood of terrorism and kill thousands of people? Quote:
Even if this is true they are still violating peoples right to free gathering and to protest. That this could easily be used against political opponents is not a good thing. Quote:
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Plus the streams and streams of legislation to limit peoples rights, increase the power of the state and destroy the British legal system. Quote:
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Given the past and the abuse of power by governments, the benefit of the doubt seems to have zero foundations on which to support itself. Quote:
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the rest of us troll better. |
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You do realise that blowing people up was actually illegal before 9/11, right? Quote:
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P.S. Yes guys, he's real. |
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IF we want to stop global terrorism we should start with stopping our own. Quote:
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Re: The end of british democracy?
Brand new memeber looks up a 2 1/2 year old thread and bumbs it. An interesting introduction to GD.
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