Round 42 shipstats discussion
Discussion thread for the stats found here.
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
From the other thread (on suggestion forums):
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I might make Viper normal init 7, change Broker to 6 (or Banshee 4), making Cath a bit weaker to Fr incs while still being able to attack Etd with Xan. Quote:
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(to an extend of course). I was thinking of changing Syren to Cr, though. Quote:
Etd is a bit teamup reliant on bigger targets, but should be able to roid easily early in the round. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
you could just switch the init of phnx and wyvern
would allow xans to effectively defend against terran BS would class up the xan fr fleet in general and weaken terran a lil bit for cathaar you could remove the widow completely, which will make cathaar a bit less attractive for alliances and yet again class up xans Ghost for ally defence (remember the switch of the terran inits) cheers |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
I really really dislike making cr/bs attackships weak to fr/de ship (without there being at least EMP to help). Even if only Xan had (a Fr) anti-Ter Bs, it'd make it so muhc less viable.
Donar, what was that post needed for? :/ |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Just to address some of your points Patrikc - Xan are not that bad. They can choose to build Spectre against Terran BS and fire first at Dragons, and can also fire at Etd BS for free.
Though yes, still vulnerable to Zik / Ter DE and three EMP fleets. However stacking on Revenants and FI in general (which will be naturally high in number anyway as most will have FI as an attack fleet) will help to make this less of a weakness. Though Cath CR will be a constant headache all round. Just IMO Xan are far from unplayable at the moment. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
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what about makin the syren a CR then? (init 9?) drake init to 8 at the same time at least terran de could roid terran bs players then |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=211919514144
only suggestion I would make would is.... Phoenix Corvette Fr to Phoenix Corvette Fi Pegasus Destroyer Fi to Pegasus Destroyer Fr Spectre Cruiser Bs Cloak 5 to Spectre Cruiser Bs Cloak 8 As there is no Fi class anti de kinda makes the pegs a redundant attack ship. Also Means that ter now have ally eta anti fi being a down side if that is a concern then... Phoenix Corvette Fr to Phoenix Frigate Fi (tweak the cost/armour/damage and emp res accordingly) to make xan fi more roidable on terrans (without having to do a fi/co combo and leaving the revs being open to harpy/cutlass def) and ter bs more roidable on xans (after early - mid round). |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Ter BS is good as it is and doesn't need to get nerfed. Ter DE is awesome and the Syren is one of the few ships that stop them ingal, as CR aren't that great vs. DE and the zik DE teamups have a good anti-CR ship.
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are already very powerfull and ter/etd BS planets are the only ones they can't land atm, and there aren't any ally anti-DE ships that aren't needed on offence. FR again have the phoenix vs. them, and one of the only 0 loss defships in the game with the smuggler. Quote:
Spectre is good as it is to keep for Xans willing to do that third shipresearch as nost having to do it is of big benefit for Xans the first few weeks, and they seldom want to do it. Spectre balances out BS dominance well if used. Only change I'd see to these stats is 1 more ally anti-DE ship, since the only 2 ones that exist are needed on offence. Maybe give that to ETD instead of the Recluse? A FI class anti-DE ship? |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Are these stats relatively finished so looking at them is worthwhile or can one expect a lot of changes? Sounds from comments here that there is not a ton that needs to be changed?
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
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The way I would DC a xan inc on a ter is get spider defence (Spiders are 156% v revs = pretty damn effective) to freeze the revs and / or phantom defence (Phantoms are 123% effective v revs... they KILL + fire before revs) tell the ter to keep harpy (0 loss on revs hence xan fi/co combos) pegs home now get a free hit into the xan fi (too easy to stop imo) If the above changes were implimented its means that xans can now attack using pure fi (no 0 loss options against it) and only beetles (ally eta emp) ,shadow (non ally eta kill) and recluse (non ally eta emp) fire before it does. Revs also become purely a defensive ship Overall my suggested change would make xan a bit stronger (with better options for using fi for attack) and ter a bit weaker (More Fi vunerable) without nerfing their BS fleet. The impression I get from other players is having a set of stats where you can roid solo and not resort to 5 man plus team ups to land anything. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Well, xan fi can already roid ziks, cath AND etds solo... not like they will be lacking a ton of targets. And just the fact that Terrans have to build both pegs and harps, as well having to keep both home incase it is a fake means terrans will already have to spend a lot of res on anti fico
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
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Harpy will have to be built as anti cath co anyway (and im sure it will be a requirement for most allies to build them for defence) |
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I don't really see the problem though. So what if Xans can't attack Terrans with fi, you can't expect them to be able to roid everyone.
And pegs can't really be used safely ingal vs xan fi either as the terran would have to send harps along too, meaning a cluster**** is imminent. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
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Nothing stopping the target/ter gal seeking ingal rogues to compliment ingal peg defence To cover the xan fi/co inc. Depends what Patrikc wants from the stats wether it is attacking stats or defensive ones or a mix. I Would welcome a responce from Patrikc on his plans for the stats. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Ter BS will undoubtedly start off very good, though focusing too much on BS will mean that cath CO and other ter BS will roid you silly.
I'm not saying Terran don't look very good, I'm just saying that I don't think xans need any more targets for soloing. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
What I want with these stats, as I said earlier, is to give each race/fleet two viable (solo) attack options, with a ship available that can defend against it easily. Currently it looks like this:
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Ter De -> Cat, Zik | +z=Xan | Quote:
And I don't want Ter to be weak vs Xan Fi. Cat Co alone is bad enough. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Although my opinion means diddly shit i have to say that these are the evenest set of stats we have seen in a while (appocomaster should be banned from touching them!!!)
There is numerous viable combinations and solo roiding fleets and everyone can hit lots of other stuff. Well done Patrikc you may have actually created a set of stats that will mean a round is won on skill of play rather than which ally has the most opped fleets. Im thinking atm my personal preference is the Cath Cr/ Zik Cr combo as it seems not as much can roid you, especially if your bped and can cross cover ingal. Personal opinion tho... |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
DE need one more ship that can defend vs. them from ally, otherwise they'll be very overpowered. Why not make the phoenix anti-DE or give etd or zik an anti-DE FI/CO class ship?
I think the first option is better. There are then an equal amount of ally def anti-FR/DE ships, and it's not a huge change for Ter. Also balances out FR and DE. Now it's leaning way too much toward DE with FR having Smugglers vs. them and more anti-FR FI/CO class ships. Smugglers alone will be a big problem for them and is one of the largest offensive weaknesses in those stats at the moment. Gamewise that is, not that it's a shit thing from the stats! :D They're good! |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
De already is weak as there is NO possible way for them to get through Syren/Tycoon. Every other attackfleet has either EMP or low inits to compensate.
And don't forget, it's single targeting, fr/de can't "fort" like usually. Both Zik and Ter are very open to Cath incs. I might consider lowering the cost of Cutlass/Harpy a little bit, which will make them easier to EMP when there's cheap Xan flak. Alternatively, increase Beetle ERes for Spider def on Zik/Ter. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Hey Pat, any idea when these may be "finalised" so we can scrutinise a little further?? :D Just doesn't seem like much is going to be changed....
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They're as good as done at the moment, the only thing I'm wondering about is whether or not to remove the Locust.
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The stats looks pretty good to me. I haven't looked at the efficiencies, but is it not generally so that caths struggle bigtime when they don't have a viable killship or two in single-stats rounds?
I think all races are playable tbh. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
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That said, it just makes Xan even more playable in my mind. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Sooo... Ter bs wins? Why would you make a fleet able to roid everyone just about? Why wouldnt everyone just go Ter bs?
Yes the spectre beats ter bs, but xans wont build spectres because they will need the fr flack so they will build ghosts. And you say there weakness is cath co, sure harpy is garbage vs beetle but just becaue 1 fleet out of the game can roid them doenst make it fair that they can roid everyone else. Fix the init on either the wyvren or syren, preferably the syren so that it shoots after De gets to fire back. Other than that stats look pretty cr/bs heavy but meh. |
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But Terran BS roids itself so if everyone went Terr BS then you would never keep any roids.
In a round where every race is playable and has 1 decent roiding fleet then people will naturally lean towards there favourite race instead of whats OP. Especially in ST rounds. Yes the stats have finished up cr/bs heavy but in a way thats a good thing. overall fi/co isnt playable as an alliance strategy which i believe is something you wanted when you made the stats Tia but failed. Just accept that Patrikc made a good set of stats and for once we might have quite an even round of PA. Where activity and skill play as important role as who you know and where you are |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
But having everyone go cr/bs is the same as everyone going fi/co. It stagnates. The perfect set of stats is where an alliance has to have equal parts of every race and ship builds. This set DOES NOT do that because there is a race that is better than all the rest. If its only weakness is a hole, then its too easy to cover that hole. Who cares if ter bs roids itself. ITs stupid easy to flagship a Ter bs planet to #1. Which at this point is likely. Once a Ter gets a goodly roid lead off there unstoppable roiding fleet. The alliance defense keeps them safe and they win with out much of a threat. There has to be SOME weakness to ter bs other than they can be roided by fleets that dont actually hurt them.
Having a fleet that practically can not lose value is going to ruin the game. Every other fleet has atleast a ship that fire before it, same init, or free fire. Except for ter bs, and the guardian doesnt count because it emp. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
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The fact that Ter got 25% salvage AND a far too high C output should be taken into consideration when doing ter stats. Stats needs to reflect that if you defend with X ter fleets/ships + salvage bonus, it shouldnīt be a "clear win", far too many times in rnd 41 itīs been a 25% of att fleet that would come out + in value. Itīs to be said tho, that current stats isnīt as Ter BS op'ed as rnd 41, but still unbalanced regarding salvage bonus. Try doing some calcs patrikc, where you look at Ter defending against other races - It could be tweaked a bit tbh, the A/C and D/C needs to match the salvage bonus - or better yet remove that damn bonus - it makes sense with cath, sure, but a kill ship class with equal/superior ship stats to the remaining races just tilts the balance. And spare me for the well xan is cloaked, ziks can stea, cath got insane initl bs - itīs just not comparable with Ter bonusses. |
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Still wont matter because every one will be the same planets. If a round is a "meta-class" round then its boring and not fun. But if everyone does something else, has there own niche then its fun.
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
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Moreover, I would love to see a set of stats where having "equal amounts of each race" is the way, as far as I know such a set of stats is nigh on impossible to happen, as in essence every race would have to have the same podclasses. Quote:
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The way I see it, if anything should be done to terran it isn't in regards to targetting, rather what should be looked at is the efficiency of their bs(it can't be too high) and, as previously mentioned, making sure that their salvagebonus is taken into account so that they aren't overpowered in def. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Furthermore, you are forgetting a very important thing. In single-targetting rounds the attacker has relatively more flack to go through(due to splitting his value into more ships than he would normally do).
Therefore, here's two quite posible situations we might face next round. Assuming that it is a ter BS heavy round both the defending planets have proportionally more anti bs than they'd normally have: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=r48gczh1q42q9xw http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=y9wlbnw2qse2doj And this is without an ounce of ally def.. edit: I know that xans might be very likely to go for fi in attack, however, I think most xans would have plenty of fr both for faking and to stop bs(after all is GUARANTEED TO BE A BS DOMINATED ROUND). |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
I can most certainly understand the 'fear' of a Ter Bs dominated round - especially after last one. However, as isildurx pointed out, there's a big difference between ST and MT. Last round, Ter could get away with building 3 ships, with maybe a few Phoenix (though De was nearly non existant). With these stats, they already have to build just 3 ships to attack properly. Then they also have to spend a lot on Chimeras if they want to ever be able to stop Ter Bs (oh hai), on top of that they need a ton of Harpies.
That said, I agree 100% that Ter's racial bonuses have been out of line for way too long. The best construction speed by far, good research AND 25% SALVAGE BONUS. It's ridiculous and hopefully I can finally convince Appoco/whoever to lower them a bit. :) |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Removing the salvage bonus altogether and dropping the research speed by 10 RP/tick seems like a prudent move.
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Yeah totally agree there
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Any news on changes to stats or removal of ter bonus?
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
from #beta:
[19:01] <ZmF> Patrikc [19:02] <ZmF> ive noticed that both DE pods have very low EMP res [19:02] <ZmF> did u do this with a reason? [19:03] * Joins: Tia ([email protected]) [19:03] * P sets mode: +l 25 [19:38] <Patrikc> Nope, both pods were Fi/Co before, just forgot to adjust those. [19:40] <ZmF> will u change this for the finals or keep it this way [19:40] <ZmF> cuz vs emp u need to spam pods rly [19:43] <Patrikc> Just changed it. :) [19:45] <ZmF> cool :) [19:55] <Patrikc> Going to slightly lower Ter Bs efficiencies, juggle a bit with Xans and increasing Etds. [19:55] <Patrikc> Nothing going over, say, 5% difference though. [19:57] <ZmF> ur doing a great job mate [19:57] <ZmF> tried ter and zik so far [19:57] <ZmF> to bad theres such a few players [19:58] <ZmF> going afk again [20:00] <Patrikc> :) [20:00] <Patrikc> If you've any other feedback, just throw it out here or pm. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Man you totally twisted my words there!
Changes 30/05 around midnight gametime: Code:
Syren Armour 67 -> 69 |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
fireblade and peacekeeper are insanely weak. weaker than zik de and they are cr!
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
tbh, clipper and fireblade arm/dmg/cost should be swapped. so clipper is a less powerful ship than fireblade but fires earlier as is smaller.
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
ok here is what i think:
slightly nurf zik, slightly buff etd (easiest is to fix each ones cr slightly) slight nurf cat (probably just beetle and only very slightly) (also, double check costs as some dont seem correct on etd) |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Stats don't look half bad impressed pat very impressed keep up the good work
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
although this was said in #beta and #planetarion i thought patrikc might actually read it if it was here:
Agreeing with Rein - slightly nerf zik and slightly buff etd As it stands although there is a general evenness most ppl will still be drawn to zik de and etd looks the weakest race overall. Only minor changes needed - the effiency of the Clipper for starters - it kinda beats all CR ships hands down and is sitting in the best race/class so will be in a large abundance atm. |
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
I really think this whole Clipper thing is being exaggerated by a LOT. Yes, Zik De is good against Cr (or rather, Cr is bad against Zik), It isn't even unrealistic. Ter De can be hit by Cat Co, Zik De can be hit by Xan Fi. Good galaxies will crossdef, of course, but both races are quite weak vs Bs and they have little synergy in countering it.
As for Etd, there are several changes I had in mind. a) Change Lancer to Co->Co stealship. This would, in my opinion, make Etd infinitely more interesting, though it could lead to massively farmed (donated?) Etds. Its init would be after Cutlass, and its damage/cost wouldn't exceed Cat Co's lowest A/C so no value steals. Would feel a lot better about this change if you couldn't gain value on salvage. b) Change Broker to Cloaked. Small change to increase (Etd) Fr's viability, as well as opening a few more fake options for Fr/Bs planets. b2) Change Broker's target to De. An option I'm still not too sure about, but it would definitely help Etd, while hurting the strong De fleets. c) Make the Peacekeeper (the Cr->Fr) EMP while changing the Fireblade's init to 21 (shooting before Pirate) - allows Etd Cr/Bs to attack solo, being stopped by only Fireblades, and if they can steal some Cr pods Cat/Etd/Zik Cr is quite strong. Won't change anything for at least another day to get some feedback on these possible changes as well as thinking more about the OP Clipper! ;o One thing I'll definitely do though is make sure all Cruisers are more expensive than Destroyers. It'll make Reincarnate's day for sure! |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
The best thing about ziks is easily their 0-loss anti FR ship imo. Means you can spend all those res usually put into anti fr into different ships.
I agree that ziks are strong, but I wouldn't nerf them. They will probably have to build 3 shipsclasses so their res will be spread quite thin. If they are indeed OP then perhaps giving one of the FR fleets a anti de ship could be an idea. |
Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Also, I really like the Lancer and Broker changes. The Lancer change also strengthens xan, a race which seemingly very few are thinking of going. Easier for xans to (fake) attack etds now. The Broker on the other hand makes faking as etd easier.
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Re: Round 42 shipstats discussion
Well, going along with the Lancer change here, Broker could be changed into a cloaked Fr->De ship, as I doubt anyone would use Broker for anti-Co instead of Lancer. It could end up hurting De's offensive capabilities by a LOT though. But Ter has Bs to reliably attack with, while Zik will have Fi/Co to tag along with Cat/Xan (not all Ziks, obviously).
Just another thing to consider. |
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