Poaching
 

just a quick question
does having you members approach a large active planet and suggest that they join your alliance constitute poaching?



disclaimer
Rock accepts that members will move on to larger alliances however when they are activley pursued we take it personally , especially when the said alliance cant see the wood for the trees

Re: Poaching
 

Not unless they let them gently simmer in their own juices for about half an hour.

Re: Poaching
 

The other thread was closed for a reason.

Re: Poaching
 

I would say that approaching a member of another alliance actively to defect and join ranks would be poaching. But on the other hand, poaching isnt illegal and if th emember in question defects as a result, then his loyalty probably wasnt worth it anyways.

So, is it against good citizenship? probably. Is it allowed: yes.


Edit: i just read the other thread, and it seems it wasnt poaching, although the recruiter was quite trigger happy :P. I still decide to leaver the first part of this post here, since it still is my opinion abbout poaching in general

Re: Poaching
 

If you didnt whine at chelsea the last 3 years, you have absolutely no right to whine about this.
If a member leaves for something better it simply means you werent good enough, live with it

Re: Poaching
 

While I dont like poaching much I have done it myself and I am not proud of it. But as a general guideline you shouldnt ask someone to join your alliance in the middle of a round, instead you should ask about next round. That's what I do.

I only approach people I know from before about joining my alliance.
If they come to you asking to join its okay. But I also ask why he wants to leave the alliance he currently is in. If he gives shitty reasons like they're not good enough etc I think about it twice before saying he can join.

Re: Poaching
 

Consider it did constitute poaching. Then what? If an alliance believes it to be in their best interest to get that 'large active planet' to join their ranks (which I'm sceptical about to be honest, seeing jumping ship half-way through the round isn't exactly the biggest sign of loyalty to me personally), I'd expect no less of them than to do so.

If you are upset or take it personally because you find it dishonourable of 'against good citizenship' as Remy put it, you really need to wake up and smell the coffee, it's a war game. Nice guys finish last.

If you're not upset because it happened, I do not see how it would have any relevance whether or not it is considered poaching. If you refer to the other thread, that, to me, wasn't a case of poaching.

Re: Poaching
 

Actually I had a discussion with Lokken about that as I felt it raised a good discussion point and he said a new thread on poaching would be perfectly fine

Re: Poaching
 

it's not poaching unless you get them drunk and seduce them, or buy their kid an SUV, provide "donations" to a private fund in their name, send them midget porn, or knock off a person of their chosing as consideration for their transfer to your command

Re: Poaching
 

I have a feeling that joke will be lost on our european friends duck :P

Re: Poaching
 

No, most members have little say in who ends up recruited. Only if a High Council member states who they are openly and approaches that member about joining would it then count as poaching, and only if they knew of the former alliance beforehand.

Poaching is a subjective term as a result.

If a 1up member approached say, a ROCK planet to join 1up, that wouldnt be poaching because the 1up member has no say in the recruitment decision - they can only 'vouch' for that ROCK planet to join 1up. Their approach was merely to establish if there was an interest in the first place.

I prefer personally to let members apply to the alliance - but to some this is a daunting experience, especially people who have few links to the alliance they're trying to join so at times if I detect someone who is competent I'll try and arrange it for them to get a 1up member as a mentor to assess them further and see if they're eligble for 1up membership later on.

As for having members poached from you, no alliance is immune to that - we've had members leave 1up for pastures new - and good riddance. Disloyal dogs.

Re: Poaching
 

btw I agree that talking with a good player from another alliance about joining you for the following round sounds perfectly fine to me. Thats just good scouting. Getting him to join you mid round just to boost your score is just underhanded.

Re: Poaching
 

So is sending ingalaxy defense fleets at the last possible second. That's really underhanded.

Re: Poaching
 

someone poach Zhil please.

Re: Poaching
 

Illegal hunting of game and fish on someone else's property. Since the creation of hunting grounds in the early Middle Ages, poaching has attracted heavy punishments.


however .. animals and fish are supposed to be dumb and easily caught with the right bait and trap, human beings are not so therefore there has to be a willingness on the part of someone to be taken away, otherwise this would be press ganging.

Press Gang
Method used to recruit soldiers and sailors into the British armed forces in the 18th and early 19th centuries. In effect it was a form of kidnapping carried out by the services or their agents, often with the aid of armed men. This was similar to the practice of ‘shanghaiing’ sailors for duty in the merchant marine, especially in the Far East.

Re: Poaching
 

Wow.. I think you also should bring in drafting into this. People getting drafted for armies etc.. And kidnapping, and forced marriage etc...


Now get back on topic please..

Re: Poaching
 

It's a fact of life. When 3 million score separates 4th from 7th, you'll do anything you can to get that member (within reason). Five rounds on, no-one will ever care. They'll just see that ranking and judge you on it.

Re: Poaching
 

Anyway heres my take on it.

Imho the guy's explanation does indicate some poaching has gone on and it highlights the growing trend for alliances to carry out what i've labled 'polite poaching'. Gone are the days where threats, direct insults and other 'dirty' tactics were used to poach, now we have a situation where alliances use players own ambitions as a tool for poaching, the closest you get to a 'dirty' tactic are the cloaked insults about the persons current alliance or the comments like "We would like you next round, however we can only guarentee members this round a place"

What basically happens now is an ambitious player whom is looking to move next round gets identified by someone in the poaching alliance (Normally through someone enquiring about recruitment for next round or through things like galaxy mates) The recruiter then seduces them by making them feel wanted by this alliance and edges them towards ship jumping now by doing this.

Now I understand fully that alliances want all the good players they can get but it certainly would be good if perhaps as a community we all decided to push loyalty a bit. The poaching midround does push the alliances its happening to closer to the door each time (hey last week with the poaching that happened to F-Crew I had the "F-Crew Leaves the Universe" post written and ready to post) but your breeding the ship jumping nature of the game. If as a community we dont encourage poaching and we push the loyalty and seeing out a commitment we will have a better community for it and we won't have to have a situation where someone has to piss off all the friends they have just made to progress (after all leaving after the round while also not great isnt as bad because you arent relying on these people or made plans around these people and you have time before the round to make plans to cover the loss they represent)

Also to the players, dont let alliances seduce you or make claims that its now or never. If they want you they will always want you. Your current alliance has invested time and effort into you and the least you can do is make sure you see out the round so as to pay back this effort and faith they have put in you

Re: Poaching
 

I totally agree with this. If a HC wants you, they'll wait. They might push you hard, but if you stick it out you'll usually get a place in the end.

Re: Poaching
 

I agree to some extent with you Wakey, but in the end, if someone wants to leave your alliance, they will leave your alliance. No matter how much you try and how much you dont want it to happen, sometimes people leave an alliance based on reasons that sometimes might seem dull to you, but they will still be leaving.

Re: Poaching
 

As an alliance HC, I have to say I was mighty upset by poaching and tried to do everything to stop it. However, there's only so far you can go. It's better to let a good player who is uncommitted to leave than stay in the long run. If a player wants to leave, they WILL leave.

For the smaller alliance, it's a fact of life. You just have to improve your team in spite of them leaving. It's why I've always believed it's more difficult to manage down the foodchain than at the top if you actually want to go places.

Re: Poaching
 

Indeed, if an alliance expresses interest in you, then if it's genuine you should be able to go back at the end of the round, or change your mind even. If however you decide to leave mid-round, and perhaps even you are approached and encouraged to do so because you're wavering between your decisions - well, then in the end you deserve each other, but at the same time you're leaving people in the lurch. Someone reminded me a few days ago that back in the day PA had 25k players (don't know if they were the official figures, but for the sake of argument). Wouldn't it be nice if hordes new players could, should anyone come up with an advertising campaign that worked, join the game and make decisions for themselves. Not join the game, find an alliance, and a while later - two days, two weeks, two months - be egged on to ship jump by the genial manners of other alliances' recruiters pm'ing them? That way we all finish first. Mind you, on that basis of trust I suppose the same goes for spying in other alliances, but that's a whole different topic :)

Disclaimer: Oh. To those of you saying 'live with it' - go back up to the top and read gzambo's disclaimer. It happens to all alliances; people ship jump and don't have loyalty to that first alliance.

And now that we are reassured that the member in question is happy in his new alliance, of course we won't try and bring him back into our fold. Genuinely glad you found a happy home :D

Re: Poaching
 

Am I the only one who'd fleetcatch him and laugh? I feel rather sad I've never been poached though :(

Re: Poaching
 

I'd join 1up for some midget porn :D

:edit: i guess the person that negrepped me for this is a midget who hasn't currently starred in his own porn movie, don't worry, your time will come!

Re: Poaching
 

i have done poaching in the past for insomnia and tbh altho its not something that is "ethical" for the alliance concerned to be doing, at the end of the day we dont hit that 'leave alliance' button for them, they do it themselves.

If you instill loyalty among your memberbase and have that certain something that makes players want to stay with you, then poaching should never be a worry for you.

Re: Poaching
 

what time are we launching at him ? :p

Re: Poaching
 

Belive me, ive done that a couple of times.

Re: Poaching
 

I roid shipjumpers In time for breakfast :)

(disclaimer, providing they are in my bash limit)

Re: Poaching
 

You pretty much hit that on the nose.

Re: Poaching
 

Everyone knows the players that leave alliances midround - don't recruit them if you don't like it ;)

Re: Poaching
 

Interestingly, Lokken just made me remember certain facts from previous rounds.

It was me/Lokken that agreed upon an agreement that stated we'd inform eachother of any members trying to leave to join either alliance. (i.e if a BlueTuba member applied to join Wrath or vice versa). As far as I'm aware, the Fury/Bluetuba Alliance was one of the few, if not the first and only agreement, to have a hidden agenda like this (hidden because we certainly never told members we were sharing recruitment information)

I belive there mighth ave been an exchange of information also on when we heard of eachothers members trying to get elsewhere (if our intel identified it anyway) but I can't be too sure of that.

I just remember it being rather unique in Planetarion to have this clause in any agreement, and the fact it was Legion that consistently tried to poach from Wrath and BlueTuba which annoyed the fk out of me/Lokken. (And both myself and Lokken were tight buddies after the R4 Parallel Wars)

Re: Poaching
 

Personally if I didn't like the alliance they where in or didn't think that alliance could support them, I'd recommend and help them to move to a better alliance.

I've been on both sides of such events... seen people leave for other alliances, and I admitt it makes the anger flow. But I'd still help others to find a better home. I used to be very extreme at that before. Moved everyone into Elysium when i was there. My round 6 gal had 13/15 elys. :P

Re: Poaching
 

Why aren't u proud of it? And why not do it the same round? Say that guy is a big guy in a shitty ally that can't defend them... maybe all he gets is defence from ingal. The right ally is allways your own. It's like the right faith. Convert someone to the correct faith and save his soul(planet).

Re: Poaching
 

One alliance's traitor is another's hero.. Every place is different. Someone who couldn't give his undieing loyalty to one alliance might be able to do it to another.

Re: Poaching
 

This is the biggest load of shit I've seen on AD in quite a while. A community that cannot tolerate 'friends' playing the game in another alliance is not a community, it's a elitist clique.

Some people don't get what they want out of their alliance, even if their friends are in it. These people think they will be happier in another alliance. Who are you judge whether it's right or wrong of them to try to get more fun out of this game?

The only people who are a problem to the 'community' are the ones who, like you, think that leaving an alliance is a betrayel. If you're going to guilt-trip people into staying with your alliance, you're not going to make them happy and you're not going to build any strong community. You're going to build a gang of miserable ****s who would rather be doing something else.

Re: Poaching
 

Yeah but blah blah blah honour blah blah blah respect blah blah blah time and investment blah blah blah ungrateful therefore blah blah blah destroying the fabric of the universe.

Re: Poaching
 

If there ever was a moment for a throbbing heart emoticon, this would be it.

Re: Poaching
 

get a room you faggots

also why are people speaking of the word poaching as if it carries negative connotations?

Re: Poaching
 

I don't think the word "poaching" is even relevant. Poaching involves taking something which belongs to someone else. Members aren't owned by an alliance, they are the alliance.

Re: Poaching
 

on a serious note, and very simply, if in fact you offer what a player needs, as an alliance, he'll stay. If you do not, either because of misrepresentation, misgivings, personality clashes, ambition, or lack thereof, either with respect to the player or the alliance, then the player will likely go elsewhere when presented with a better, or atleast, a more likeable situation for them.

If another alliance presents an opportunity to a player, and he isn't getting what he/she expected or needs from the current alliance then you certainly cannot fault that player for moving. In addition, you cannot slam alliance recruiters because they are on the look out for players who will improve their aliance, as that is in fact what their job is.

Re: Poaching
 

I think too many people thinks negatively about persons who don't want to be a part of the alliance anymore. Instead of criticizing them (or whatever), they should just wish them good luck. Trying to make them stay when the member doesn't want to and when the matter can't be solved, will just be worse for the alliance. Think about this in job situations when your employee isn't happy about its job and want to move on despite all your efforts of trying to make them stay. You want a motivated or unmovitated employee?

It's all up to the members and what they want, not about the people trying to "steal" them.

If this didn't make sense, I'm sorry, I'm in a hurry.


Edit:Typo

Re: Poaching
 

It occurs to me again that perhaps we weren't reflecting on the member in question... people seem to have overlooked the comments both gzambo and I made about that. What ho, I'll get some popcorn :) It seems the definition and reputation of poaching itself are matters of opinion, which is by far the more interesting.

Re: Poaching
 

This is true but I don't think you see it from their point of view.

The point is that these alliances and command members put in time and effort developing these players. I don't think its wrong of them to expect a bit of loyalty and for something to be given back to them. I don't think 'poaching' is the problem, it's the fact that they either aren't working hard enough to get their members to stay, or quite frankly, they have no power to stop their best trainees voting with their feet. The obvious answer to all this is to quite simply get better and achieve higher rankings or get used to it. Even so, I understand their frustration.

I absolutely ****ing hated seeing my best walk out. I sense that they do too.

Re: Poaching
 

It's inevitable that poaching will be viewed differently by the HCs of different alliances. I'm not suprised that 1up HCs don't have a problem with poaching, since they don't suffer from it in a true sense. There is no 'bigger and better' alliance for their members to go to. Regarding their players' PA careers, they have generally reached the top - whether in 1up, Angels or eXilition/Omen/etc.

In contrast, alliances at the lower levels do have poaching issues to varying degrees. Those that train new players, such as F-Crew, are hurt more by poaching than Vengeance, Subh or xVx. 1up/others should have no real need to put much effort into players themselves - otherwise they'd have made a mistake in recruiting them in the first place. On the other hand, F-Crew et al put a phenomonal amount of effort into their members, and seeing that effort being wasted is incredibly disheartening.

Re: Poaching
 

i used the word "poaching " as most of ad would understand what was meant by it

loosing members because another alliance "encouraged" them to leave is never nice
the fact that the member in question never approached anyone after the offer was made to him means we are probably better off without him so we have moved on from it

Re: Poaching
 

I have mixed views on poaching/shipjumping...

Whilst there is a need to move on to another alliance, This should really be done when the rounds are Finished and not inbetween at least this way your reputation will be intact... Although I did leave f-crew early in r14 with some regret and some aspect of "PA immaturity" (Out of respect I wouldnt organise a war on F-crew and would most certainly aid them if they asked for my help.)

when I join the subh BG In WP that later joined reunion. I thought this was the ally for me. Due to reunions policy(s) mainly being alot of subhs members being booted from reunion. I did look into joining other ally for the remander of r14 (LCH, 1up and ND) Looking back at it I was quite surprised why none of them were willing to take me in.
But looking at it after that round I had the profile of a shipjumper. also I had the profile of a spy aswell (to LCH and ND).

You have to ask what the persons intentions for leaving an ally mid round.
Is it because they are unhappy with their ally for a good reason for example. members of your BG being mass booted. Or as I have had a few ex members in allys I have been in left because they didnt get all their waves covered and go into a tantrum.Is it due to the fact that they are mercinaries aka "man utd" fans as I call them. Tbh I would say good riddance to the latter.

These arent the type of people I would poach as it means they are likely to leave yous for another ally. It does take a skilled recruiter to get the right people in your ally.

Re: Poaching
 

I do understand your point, as we're not directly effected by this as much as a mid level alliance, however we do have our times when players go after putting effort into helping them be successful, and even in 1up, the HC try to help players improve, regardless of their skill set when they join. That's our job, we may develop players in a more "refined" manner, but we do put effort into making each member the best player they can be. We try to facilitate them in improving on their skills, attack habits, fleet composition knowledge etc.

Lokken mentioned above about "expecting" a certain level of loyalty from players, and I see where that expectation could be in place, but I'm not sure it's a fair expectation.. here's why, A player pays (generally speaking) to play PA, he has a responsability to him/herself to do the best they can, to get the most out of their gaming experience, and the most out of their dollar.

If another alliance is a better fit, then I'm certainly (in most cases) sorry to see someone go, but I would hope I'm big enough to wish them the best and move on. (there are also those that leave for other alliances and the Command team jumps up and down in glee, lol)

Re: Poaching
 

I disagree, this isn't about money at all, unless the alliance paid for that planet. In which case the alliance who received the player or the player who leaves should, at least in my opinion, have his planet closed until the original person who paid for him is reimbursed. I've seen wakey go nuts about players in this situation who have defected and rightly so.

The whole point, is that someone put time and effort into developing that player, the least they could expect is some time and effort back from that player to see out the round. To me it's just basic politeness and gratitude because that first alliance gave you 'value for your dollar' in the first place. While they shouldn't ask for ongoing loyalty (as this would be pointless) I don't think sticking to the end of the round is too much to ask. And this is why they have a reasonable frustration.

Re: Poaching
 

Lokken, in the end it comes all down to the very core of PA ... that it is all just a game. Alot of pple don't give a flying fk about what other online pple think about them. Pple that might care when it'd be a real life situation.

Yes it's common decency, but isn't the purpose of a game to have fun and to be able to do things you can't in real life?

Re: Poaching
 

Anyone who walks out isn't your best. No matter what other criteria you apply to defining "your best", surely one of them has to be that the member wants to remain in your alliance.

If someone wants to leave 1up then I don't try to talk them out of it - as I've no interest in trying to persuade someone to remain who isn't whole-heartedly commited to wanting to be in 1up. I thank them for their efforts, wish them good luck then look at their planet to see if it's worth roiding.