Another School Shooting
 

I was watching the news a bit ago, and the top story was this.

For those of you who wish to skip the article, a 32 year old milk man went into a 1 room Amish Schoolhouse and bound up all the girls, sent the adults and boys outside, and proceded to shoot the 9 girls, killing 3 of them and critically injuring the other 7.

I mention this mainly becuase it's something I'd never thought I'd here, or even a thought passing through my mind. Amish people (for those who don't know), don't embrace modern technology (electricity, phones, tv, computers, etc.), they use horses and buggies still, and are probably some of the most passive people in the world. So, it's almost shocking to hear of a crime of such magnitude involving them. It also makes me think this guy was a big coward to essentially take out his grudge on these passive innocent people, just because it was the most convenient way to take out his grudge.

One of the other things I noticed reading the article, this is apparently the 3rd school shooting in a week in the US. When I was in school, we never dreamed of such an event; we didn't have metal detectors, and our random locker searches were for the most sinful thing teenagers would have at our school...cigarettes.

I was almost that they at least said the guy committed suicide after shooting the girls.

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Right, there were 9 girls and a teenage "Teacher's Aide" who was also a female and one of the three who died, I forgot to mention that part.

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stop selling guns.

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Wow, why didn't we ever think of this before???

The problem is at this point stopping the sale of guns wouldn't really do much, as there's enough black market weapons that anyone who really wanted one wouldn't have to go far to find one. Although this would be a good idea, to stop selling or manufacturing weapons for commercial use, but just for military or civil police.

On a side note, according to The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, a town in Idaho is actually passing a law that there has to be a gun in every house. One of his better jokes was "Hate to be a Jehovah's Witness in that town."

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and not stopping the sale of guns will help how?

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I never knew it was an amish school, that makes it even sader as i find it hard to believe that someone can have a hate for them.

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I don't think he had anything against the Amish (according to the story), it just happened to be close, convenient, and he knew there would be no security.

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Yeah that was a sucky thing to do. The thing thats lol is that he dropped his OWN kids off at school, then went to ANOTHER school and shot up little girls.
Whats sad is that he wasn't crazy or anything. He had enough composure to drop his kids at school. Locate a different school, and then let out the pregnant women and women with small babies.

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Quoting half a sentence, inside a paragraph where I agree with you just so you can have something to demean or shoot down doesn't really add to the discussion, just makes you look like your whole goal in life is to try and make other people appear less intelligent than you or something, but that's a discussion better suited for a different thread.

Edit: Just so you know, this is the part where I agreed with you:

Re: Another School Shooting
 

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/arti...-C1-Headline-2

heres the latest report

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there's all sorts of crazy. Apparantly this was because of something that happened 20 years ago. No-one knows yet just what this event was.

He may have gone home to write his suicide notes (4 of them, to each child and the wife) and then it may have been the nearest school from his home.

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I doubt having metal detectors and an armed guard would help any common school against a mass murderer like this one.

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By not leading them down a garden path of retardedness that will eventually result in the banning of knives and glasses, as politicians and middle class parents continually piss into the wind in a bid to end violence by banning anything that can conceivably be used as a weapon?

As always, if even one of the adults present at the school had been armed, this probably wouldnt have happened.

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That is a very likely scenario. If you ban the sale of guns, they'll just resort to something else such as knives, although this story is 2 years old, it does show that you don't need guns to cause havoc in a school. I only remember this story because one of my friend's mom was subbing at the school that day and actually saw the kid run by her classroom.
Yeah, but you have to consider, an armed Amish person is probably brandishing a Pitch Fork, not a shot gun and a 9mm handgun.

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5 dead now unfortunately, and still rest on critical list :( the only saving grace from all this is that the sick **** that did it is dead :s

Why oh Why do these things happen, as a father of 3 i cannot imagine the heartache to be felt from that happening to one of my little girls!

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Maybe. The american way would likely be to encourage 20% to 30% of adults in a school to be trained on and wearing weapons. Add the new "shoot because you feel threatened" law and schools will be much safer ;) Another good idea would be to add "school marshals" - midgets wearing guns and posing as kids.

Then they act surprised that the new barbwire fences and metal detectors didnt help much because there where more guns already inside the school then a common person could carry and the average teacher isnt really Jackie Chan with added sharpshooter abilities.

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I think the first step would be to restrict sale, as Yahwe suggested, and then crack down on illegal arms trade about half as strongly as the government cracks down on the drug trade.

Making it difficult to buy guns isn't going to stop everything, but it is going to slow some people down, discourage them etc. every life counts.

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what rot.

the statistics on gun crime have been colated for years. Machiavelli himself warns against arming your populace.

Your problem, despite your irresistable and chronic need to troll, is that you have no real skill with logic. Your perverted little ginger infected mind tells you "if X who murdered 5 people had been shot no one would have been murdered" rather than telling you that "If X had been shot for carrying a gun, by another civilian carrying a gun, there would be one murder".

Your 'solution' reduces the murder rate from 5 to 1. Mine reduces the murder rate from 5 to 0 ... and you have the audacity to imply my solution is 'retarded'.

There is no workable model for both allowing people to carry guns and allowing people to shoot people who carry guns.

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go troll someone else

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logical fallacy.

I didn't advocate that, did i?

the trifecta of poor argumentation!

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I don't see that as a saving grace.
He cannot be punished and we cannot find out why he did it.

The only "good thing" about him being dead is that he can't shoot anyone else... but if he was arrested then he wouldn't be able to anyway.

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How would he be punished tho? a slap on the wrist and some years behind bars at the expense of joe public?
I think not!

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kill those who have killed to show them that killing is wrong. a+++++++

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What?
If you're telling me that people who have committed mass murder get a 'slap on the wrist' (especially in the US) then what crazy propaganda have you been reading?
Let him spend the rest of his days in prison. If anyone says that isn't a punishment then I'd like to see them survive a couple of weeks of it let alone 40 years.

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What an absurd waste of money; have you any idea how much it costs to keep someone in prison for 40 years?

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I don't know what type of school you went to or what it was like back then, but cigarettes aren't really an issue compared to what there is in most of the schools here.
As some of you may know, I attend a private school in North London. Most private schools are not full of "rude boys" who try their hardest to get involved in gang warfare, they are generally full of civilised people who know that their parents are paying for their education etc, they aren't involved in any of this popular gang warfare in London.
My school has/had people bringing cannabis into school, I mean 3/4 or so of the people in my year smoke cannabis regularly/semi regularly (some do it during lunch break etc), so schools aren't really what you percieve.

My old school, however, was far worse, we had people brinigng knives in every day etc, I'd never seen anyone selling drugs (unlike my new school, this one wasn't really a tight-knit community so I didn't really know who were the drug dealers etc, but it did happen).

Basically, schools have really changed since when you were in school

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http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...=7#From%20DPIC

First line.

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By allowing those that want to continue to carry firearms for selfdefence the ability to do so without having to resort to obsolete weaponry. As Nod pointed out banning guns is the first step in taking ever increasing and absurd measures to stop people defending themselves; its a back door into developing a police state. Society complains about a nanny state yet advocates increased spending on the police in order to sort out every problem. If the teachers were allowed to arm themselves or at the very least fully armed security was present in every school those events would never occur. The amish would just have to accept their pacifism had drawbacks and relying on others to kill the gunman invariably leads to a delay in which greater harm can be done.

The guns aren't the problem, rather its the inequality in how and when they can be carried.

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Do you honestly believe that less people would die in the long run if the teachers on the Amish farm now carried guns?

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I didnt say that he should be killed tho, all i said is that i am glad he is dead!

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That's a loaded question. It's like stating that you support the freedom to bear arms so you must think having people who have no idea how to operate a gun being given one is a good idea. It's really a societal perspective more than a question of individual issues.

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I dont think someone shooting himself in a school is going to cost people very much. In any case, I think a lot of the death penalty expenses could be eliminated if things were done in a more sensible manner (something closer to shooting people straight after their trial if there was no doubt whatsoever they were guilty).

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gd1

To be honest I'm not really comfortable with removing part of the due process from something as potentially dangerous as the death penalty.

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You guys are making somewhat of a good point in that if there was armed security at the school it might not of happened, but being an Amish school, they probably never saw a need, the crime rate among Amish is so low it's almost ridiculous to even imagine something like this would happen. As for normal schools, yes they should be have adequate security, but maybe they could use those wonderful new rubber bullets that don't kill the guy, or a stun gun. I don't think having loaded guns with real bullets in a school sends out a good message to the students, thinking that they're in such danger going to school they need armed security. Sure you might argue it provides a sense of protection, but a majority of the nutcases who shoot up schools do enough planning they'd probably figure out a way to neutralize the guard anyway.

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He was advocating (at least theoretically) that teachers should be allowed to carry guns. the cost of provivding guns and regular training to ensure that teachers know how to use guns would (I'd imagine) cost a fair amount. this money could probably save more lives if spent on hospitals.

Storing guns in school (no matter how secure) has at least two major flaws.

1) A crazy pupil could break in and find an arsenal on hand. If this was avoided with some kind of biometric protection (rather than a key or passcode, which could be stolen with enough vigilence) the cost would sky rocket.

2) Even if a pupil brought in their own weapons, it is very different to operate a firearm under such stressful conditions especially if you have to shoot a human being. this becomes more pronounced considering most school shooters (afaik) end up killing themselves.

In the end, I don't really see how 'more guns in schools=less shootings in schools' can be accurate.

Edit: Shootings would probably be more organised. Knowing that teachers could be armed may increae the rate of shots fired to 'get the job done' before their work in interrupted.

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Thats an odd question to ask, if the killing is legitimate why does it matter? I think that its perfectly conceivable that less people would die as the detterant would be greater. Regardless the number of deaths isn't the issue here, personal protection is. I don't think the number of guns in a country is a determining factor in the number of psychopaths that exist, if the number of deaths in a year for a particular region is of concern we'd have to look at banning cars.

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afaik training isn't a prerequiste to being armed, im not talking about mandatory requirements - teachers aren't the police. Rather if an individual wished to bring weapons to school, they should be allowed to do so.



You don't usually store guns if you carry them for personal protection.


What does that have to do with your right to carry a gun? so what if most school shooters kill themselves, id rather kill them before they kill me.



More guns in schools = More chance of gunman being killed before doing harm.

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More guns = more gunmen.

Besides, how do you think the gunman's going to announce himself? A quick hello? No, they're going to open fire on the kids and it'll be once a few are dead that the agent will get there in time. Most of these gunmen kill themselves anyway once they run out of ammo/targets/hatred, I doubt the threat of being killed by someone else is too worrying for them.

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It's true, most of these nut cases go in knowing that they're not coming out, so they're going to try and take as many with them as they can before they go. Arming teachers is a bad idea, if just one of them ever didn't secure there weapon, mass chaos would ensue, the solution isn't arming more people, but reducing the capability of others from getting weapons. Sure they might resort to knives if they can't get a gun, but it's easier to defend against a knife than it is against a bullet that might kill you before you even hear it shot or see the gun/gunman.

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Firstly, see above.

It depends on what you mean by legitimate. If you honestly thought someone was a threat, when they were not and you shot them dead, would that be legitimate?

Most shooters (afaik) have little or no regard for their own lives and already plan to die, so the chance of being shot is not going to be a deterrent. It might mean the guard is killed (increasing the death rate and giving the shooter another gun) and increases the risk of an innocent bystander being caught in the cross-fire.

Have you seen how many people are killed by their own weapon the own for 'personal protection'?

Clearly A does not equal B, but increasing the number of guns around does increase the chances of a psychopath gaining access to one.

Cars provide a service. the only role a gun has is to cause phycical damage. If they did something else then you may have an argument.

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Yeah, why not let teachers bring in whatever type of gun they want into school?

What about in college? Should 18 year old students be allowed to carry guns for their own protections?

teachers carying guns? that's smart. they might lose them, or get stolen. At least if they were locked away then there would be less chance of getting it stolen.

this has already been covered, so I won't bother.

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What?

So in your eyes it's perfectly ok for anyone to bring any weapon they want into a school?
Does that include the kids?

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You're missing my point. The fact we're having this debate at all is indicative of a fundamental flaw in how we look at people.



Also in response to your edit are you mildly insane? Have you seen any lone gunmen attacking army bases recently? We're not talking about people who are trying to storm a city or make a political point here.

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milo do you propose teachers should carry guns at all times? If you don't then it's pretty pointless I guess, since they won't be able to get to their guns if the shooter KNOWS they are trying to arm themselves. If you do, what do you think the odds are a student will steal the gun from the teacher? Most teachers are in pretty close contact with the students.

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I'm not really sure what your point is here. If you're implying that gunmen wouldn't attack schools if they were designed like army bases in a war zone then I might agree, in that they would just pick an easier target (i.e. McDonalds on a weekend, or wherever kids hang out these days).

My edit was to cover the one teacher having a gun scenario, rather than some type of war-zone protection, with snipers and guard dogs.

Most of these attacks are (at least in part) pre-planned. this guy knew exactly what he was doing and equipped himself for the job. I really doubt that having an armd gured would have made him reconsider, especially as he knew he was going to die. He would simply have worked out a way to ensure that the guard was either neutralised or the alarm was not raised until the latest possible moment. Surely he knew that when he let the women and little boys go free that they would get the police.

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No dude, I'm saying the problems we should be looking at are the ones that made him go out and kill three randomly chosen schoolgirls.

Well you could put him in plain clothes or something, or behind bullet-proof glass on the only way into the school, or give him a bullet-proof vest hidden under his clothes. We are talking about a trained professional specifically there for these types of attacks here. Some lunatic with a gun might not exactly be odds on to neutralise him and then be able to go on a murderous rampage after.

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Apparantly, this guy abused two cousins when he was 11 (they were about 3 or 4). He had visions of doing this again for the past two years. Apparantly, he was equipped with things to aid his abuse of the children. that he killed them so quickly implies that he was interrupted before he could carry out the deed.

He was troubled by demons that he could not expose to anyone (even professional help) without facing legal proceedings and the potential loss of his family.

that paedophilia (for want of a better word) is seen as inherently evil instantly puts people off from seeking help (assuming they want it), this is multiplied infinatly if a crime has already been committed.

Whilst I do agree that we should look to treat the causes (rather than shoot the effects) I doubt there was anything that could have been done to prevent this particular case.

Apart from the practiality issues, what about pupil shootings like Columbine? they will be able to study the guard for months before carrying out the attack.

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Why not? Do you think some people are just born and are 100% sure to abuse children at some point in their lives?

Well obviously that doesn't apply if he's behind the bulletproof glass. I suppose otherwise you could indulge in a high rate of turnover of guards with other schools and disguise them as janitors or ninjas or something.

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Im not sure how thats meant to counter my point, but yeah so? you're still able to defend yourself without having to rely on the police.

Why would i care whats worrying to them??!?!? All i want to do is kill them before they kill me.


Sorry i don't understand
Not sure where you're going with this but obviously no. How are the laws any different when applied to the police?

If they didn't have an regard for their own safety i think they'd choose a police department or army base (as jbg said). If i wanted to kill as many people as possible id try the path of least resistance.

No i haven't. What does it have to do with the debate? If they die at their own hands so what? It was their choice to carry a weapon and their mistake that killed them, what does it have to do with you? Do you have any idea how many people are killed in diy accidents?

And the chance of them being stopped!

Yes because obviously providing physical damage isn't a worthwhile 'service' and the existence of guns cannot be explained in spacetime. The ability of guns to cause physical damage is pretty fundamental in their use as weapons for protection, let alone their use in hunting.

yeah you tell me, why not?!?! as long as it doesn't hinder their ability to perform their job why not allow them to bring in whatever type of gun they want?


Yes!

Or they might not. I doubt the average teacher has his car stolen at school by losing his/her keys, and i doubt theres a requirement to lock them up because every student is an obvious risk of stealing and joyriding. I can't speak for yourself, but if i found my teacher had left his gun behind i wouldn't point it to my head and pull the trigger or point it at the class and laugh as i shot them up id hand i back to him.


If they're legally allowed to purchase them, yeah.


If its what they want, im not asking for a mandatory requirement, just the right of a teacher - at the very least in a public school - to carry self protection. As well as allowing more people concealment licenses.

Im not sure i follow the former, as for the latter...you people must live in some pretty degenerate places. What exactly is going to happen with guns and teacher and students in close proximity?

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Wel, if you believe that the world is objectively one giant chemical reaction, predestined to react in a certain way due to the initial action of the big bang, then yes.

If you don't mean that then, no. However, if you are showing no signs of a desire to abuse children (but are constantly thinking about it) then go on to do it then what can be done? Unless you lock everyone up then some people will slip through the net, whatever happens.

You could, but we're getting into the absurd. Even this is not fool-proof. If someone wants to commit such a crime, they will find a way. Or a different target.