R45 Stats Discussion
 

So, Appocomaster has let me upload a set of stats into the beta that may be used for R45 stats after the holidays. I'd like to open the Flaming and Bashing Early so that way people can get there problems out of the way and get them Fixed hopefully.

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=860348955123

That it where the stats are the Beta might open before the end of this current round i'm not sure yet.

So FLAME AWAY

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

No decent anti FR besides wyvs on 1st look.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Try looking At the De, Yes Ghost looks Strong and Xan Fr looks pretty good but how is it going to be able to stand up vs Drake/Centaur Def later in the round? Not to mention the fact that clipper's will almost Free Fire on all of the Fr.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

I took the liberty to change the gruesome oversight that was in your stats.

Revanant -> Revenant.

More at 11!


@11 Xan Fi unplayable, Ter De weak.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Why do we want a de/fr round? its the most difficult metaclass to play as all 3 classes target it.. just makes for a defensive round - boring

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Kaiba why do i always here "why do we want a this round" from you, what kind of round do you want to see? One where no one builds ships and just sits on 300 roids all round....

I Would like a set of stats THATS NOT FI/CO based

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Well, if that was your goal... I suppose you've achieved it. :p

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

How about a set of stats that isn't sh*t-based?

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

That said I also want Fi/Co to be useable so im working with the Eff's and stuff to find a way to make it playable. The one thing that i know for sure is that Xan Fr> xan Fi and will always for the entire round. As far as Ter De im not sure yet if keeping peg at init 5 is good

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

If that's not a reason not to use this guy's stats, I don't know what is. He's clearly more interested in making a set of stats that suit him, rather than a balanced set of stats that would allow people to make their own choices.

At least now we have plenty of time to make sure they're not used.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

T3k I want a set of stats that every race is playable and every class has just as many advantages to Negatives. I don't want another round where 10 alliances all chose the same class and its a shitty ass round. Most people in PA prefer Fi/Co rounds because of the ships natural advantage of eta. So that's what the comment of Not Fi/CO is based around.

I honestly would like to see 20/20/20/20/20 when the round stats as far as race distribution. If they means making a class like Fr/De a bit stronger than they have been recently then I'm going to do that. If that means making a race that has fallen out a bit stronger Then that's what I am going to do.

The stats were created with the Following Priciple: Ter>Zik>Cath>Xan>Etd>Ter. As far as solo's go. There are MANY team up options including the fact that 4 races can go Fi/co roiding fleets. 1Fi/1Co/2Fr/2De/2Cr/2Bs as far as pod fleets go.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Don't give me that "most people prefer" bullshit, you have absolutely no idea what 'most people want'.

Why can't we let Patrikc make the stats? He's the last person who's both competent and willing to do so.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Guardian init 1 and T3?

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Could you explain this a bit more please?
Thanks,
Steve

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

meaning:
Ter Should roid into Zik
Zik Should Roid into Cath
Cath Should roid into Xan
Xan Should roid into Etd
Etd should roid into Ter

SOLO

Doesnt mean it works for all fleets but i didnt want to leave fleets un-attackable Solo.

And what do you want from the Guardian init 1? I dont quite understand your comment. If i make it Init 2 it loses Alot of its use because then Tara's
emp before it at T1. You just complaining that it has a T3? Please Explain

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Thank you for clarifying.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Those things are not mutually exclusive.

From what I've seen, he's right. Most people would prefer a round that's not just based on whatever alliance has the most Xan fi. While that is mostly a result of the way travel time is handled in PA, there are certainly things the stats maker can do to prevent fi/co from being overly dominating.

All your posts in this thread have been either ad hominem or plain flaming. If you think the stats suck, explain what about them sucks.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Yeah but if zik can roid cath easy by your.logic then zik due to having steal.and emp can roid everyone but I check stats when you tweaked them abit

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

A: The word "easy" never appeared in his description of the overall stat design structure.

B: Even if he did, his "logic" wouldn't suggest that. At best it would suggest that zik could "easy" roid cath and, by virtue of the stolen cath ships (with the assumption that they manage offensive steals) that zik could then also "easy" roid xan. You are also implicitly assuming that the zik steals enough ships to make a difference.

C: What he was pointing out was his framework for the design approach he took. In other words everyone has a natural enemy. That is unless I misunderstood Tiamat's explanation. Should everyone but zik be situated with a natural target? Or would you just like for ziks target to be another race?

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

I guess you never understood zik, ill explain zik fires last but does good damage and not to bad def but due to firing last take immediate damage yes he stats cath can roid xan but if the zik was then able to roid xan it would steal xan which then would mean roid etd which then steal etd which would then mean ter, that's 1 way.

The other way is zik steal cath zik firepower not still fires last but due to emp first don't take any or few losses which mean due to the firepower can now effectively Target anyone.

That's 2 possible solutions all ziks love to steal cath ships so by the common Target factor you never make it easier for zik to steal cath, but as I said i won't check stats till there tweaked as if I see high emp res on zik I'm gunna label these stats worst in pa history and I never moan about any stats so I giving him his chance as I like tia to atleast think abit more and do any tweaks before I will look over stats

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

I understood just fine. Your point is still a slippery slope lacking specific examples of how zik destroys the universe in four easy steps. You still assume that the stolen ship saturation levels will be outcome determinative. And hey, you could be spot on; but when you make sweeping claims without showing the nuts and bolts of how this will all happen, I have trouble agreeing with you.

In other words, what is a reasonable fleet makeup that you are seeing a mid game zik accomplishing, and can you bcalc a few scenarios illustrating your fears.

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It could be that he never intended to make the point that zik destroys the universe in four easy steps. So, why would he provide examples?

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I've said in both examples ive not looked at stats only what he posted I'm signifying what was said and bad ideas ill judge after stats are more accurate on what he feels is more final or accurate of what he's aiming for

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

So... I go to Sleep for one night and suddenly people are assuming that Zik can roid Cath thus can roid Xan. In the current Enviroment of players not alot of them are going to leave there fleets on Stay and Fight if they arent covered. So attacking into cath/xan doesnt mean that you will steal ships. And by no means can Zik Attack freely into Xan at all.

The Reason i posted this So early was so that people COULD post VALID examples of things that NEED to be changed. Not just to flame at the stats and me. As the stats Stand there are 5 playable races and 10-12 Valid Attack fleets. If people could prove that wrong i'd gladly look into changing the stats to make that work.

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Out of curiosity, why do you randomly capitalize words? :(

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Because im a Spaz and I suck at Grammar. It's intended to emphisize certain words but mostly its because im a Spaz.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

These stats looks like the stats we have every MT round so I'm sure they will be ok.

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But fi/co is what people end up going. You have to factor in that its not just the stats that alliances pick their strategys from but also what each meta class brings to the table in terms of alliance defence response times and attacking effectiveness.

This is why de/fr is invariably the last choice for alliances ( i know not always) Because fi/co can defend it with a tick advantage, de/fr can defend it at the same eta and cr/bs is normally strong against it and requires bigger teamups to land on.

Im not pro fi/co but as t3k said you cant take away the choice for people to play it just because you dont like it. It suits a lot of alliances to play fi/co as a tactic regardless of stats - it just aids there lack of activity and is easier for their members to set up and play.

Even with those stats i would still pick cath co to play as, because it suits my personal game plan (its a bitch to defend against in decent numbers). An alliance could still play fi/co with those stats (and a few probably still would) it just means you have made a set of stats with strong fr/de ships for no reason

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Rather than making the fr/de ships strong why dont you instead give 3 races a decent fi/co fleet that roid into each other and then atleast that will make it more attractive round to watch.

As Wishmaster used to say MT is about making yourself unhittable, your more likely to acheive that dullness with de/fr than fi/co and the round will come to a standstill in 300 ticks or so.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Kaiba then you really havent looked into the stats. Fr/de is usually strong but because they cant defend vs Fi/co due to the Eta a Strong Fr/de planet will just roided by stacking on the Fi/co Fleets especially the emp.

As for Fr/De being Strong, maybe strong vs fi/co but as for against itself its really pretty weak. Fr has the overall init advantage over De but, De has a very high armor and return damage output. And given that it has equal Eta Def i Dont see Fr/de running away with the round unless the top allys decide to all go mass Fr/de in which case they'd be weak to Fi/co. So i've taken alot of factors into consideration into making these stats not just numbers.

Cr at this point might be the strongest fleet in those stats. I'm still testing and calcing to see. But Every option has its weaknesses and its strengths.

As i mentioned before I would like to see 20/20/20/20/20 From the start of the round. Its my design that alliances smartest play would be to have a good mix of all 5 races.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

But thats idealistic Tia. It wont happen - this is PA not communist Russia. Whatever 2 races compliment best will be massed.

Xan/Cath fi/co IS playable therefore you will have a large number of Cath/Xan planets.

Off those stats i would imagine it will be more likely...

Ter - 15%
Cath 25%
Xan 25%
Zik 20%
Etd 15%

With fi/co or CR being the fleets of choice.

Its not your place to stop people from playing what they like to by making stats biased towards what you see as how PA sohuld be played.

I hope sense prevails and a decent stat maker such as Patrikc comes out with his own set, because yours is dire to say the least

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If fr/de is weak against fr/de then no one will play it btw. They will play what gives them the best odd of an easy round. And as always that is fi/co or cr/bs. De/Fr is more for the dedicated player and we dont have many of those left in PA anymore

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Well Kaiba If you think that most of the planets will go cath/xan Then wouldnt a smart alliance go for a Fr/de Strat because of how dominant they are against it. Then again people in this game are so stupid so i would expect people to play Fi/Co even though it is SO weak to Fr/De.

Also i still Yet have Seen any evidence to show that the stats are slighted towards one race or one fleet type over the other. So your flaming for a new set of stats is not based on any sort of Fact. Provide Examples and then there might be some kind of debate as to a) why it is that way, b) ways to Fix it, or c) way to remove it entirely.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Tia Tia Tia.... at rd start a fr/de planet will massively struggle - it has to pick where to be strong against - fi/co, fr/de or cr/bs - it cant pick all 3 which means it either masses against 1 type which means its massively open to the 2 others or it goes across the board and is weak to all 3.

As fi/co cr/bs you will be stronger against 2 meta classes from the start - normally your own one and fr/de. When you add in Xanas ability to fake and the normally high emp ability the fr/de targetting emp ships (last 3-4 rounds the viper has gone almost 1v1 with fr/de) this improves your roiding chances - cr/bs planets are free roids for fi/co and vice versa and both can hit fr/de quite easily with 1 teamup.

Back to the fr/de planet now - so does he pick the unattractive cr/bs planet (who main ships atm will be in anti fr/de) or the fi/co planet whos allaince will have an eta advantage against him (plus xan fakes) or does he go after a fellow fr/de player knowing that most likley they will have the same dilemma and be weak to everything or to fr/de atleast. So all the fr/de roid themselves and stay small whilst the fi/co and cr/bs pull away (fi/co will pull away more as it can roid more often that cr/bs)

Overall Tia that is why de/fr is rubbish strat for top alliances in any MT round and why cr/bs or fi/co is always prefered choice

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

But Fi/Co cant be Strong vs Both Fi/co and Fr/de Meta classes Esspecially from the start almost all planets will have atleast 60% beet and atleast 60% phant/rev depending on what your building because thats what defends vs you. Only in Rare occassions such as this round where the Xans went almost 80% banshee's that we'll see fi/co mass anti fr/de from the start.

But I would like you to provide EXAMPLES as to how fi/co is dominant vs the 4 Fr fleets of which Spirit and Vshraak Fire before Banshee's and will have considerable Flack if Forted up in properly made gals. Also Having said that Stopping Fr/De Team ups will be Really hard for Fi/co Alliances because of the Init advantage and the Xan/Etd Faking potential of there Fr/De. SO I ask again PROVE your comments with Calcs and not with Speculation. I am not posting stats to fight over what people think the round will go. I'm posting it to try and figure out what about the stats needs to be changed. So, When people stay that Patrikc "the better stat maker" should make them why not point out the Flaws with this one 1st. Because So far no one has been able to stay anything constructively bad about them.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

but your also lacking anything positive either Tia. Just because nothing is constructively bad doesnt automatically make your stats or ideas good. I havent seen a positive comment yet in regard to your ideas... thats pretty telling

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

When have you EVER seen positive comments appear on the forums about round stats?

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Whenever JBG or Pat have done them there have been positive comments. As for not wanting a fi/co round, why not do something (more) original and stop giving multiple races fi/co pods?

I think these stats would end up fine, as Isil says, they are very similar to most multi targetting rounds. I would love something really different though.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Well I thought about making the stats not have fi/co pods at all and just have them be def ships.

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Worst idea ever. Get the F**K off the stats team.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

(It's been suggested I explain why)

You're complaining that you don't like fi/co-based attack fleets (and nor does anyone else it seems) and so are toying with the idea of not having any fi/co pods.

Having no fi/co pods mean that any fi/co built would be anti-fr/de. They could mass fi/co anti-fr/de and they'd ALWAYS BE AVAILABLE FOR DEFENSE. Not only would any fi/co made be purely defense fleets, but they'd have an eta advantage of 2 over fr/de attack fleets. You could make them so ridiculously underpowered that they got pwned by fr/de attack fleets, but then there'd be no point in building fi/co.

The point of having pods in each metaclass is to allow people the choice between balancing out attack fleets vs def fleets. If you say "no attacking with fi/co" then either you're trying to make PA shit, trying to make attacking with FR/DE impossible, or have absolutely no idea what you're doing.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

t3k Incase your stupid or something, you'll see that the stats i made a) have fi/co/fr/de/cr/bs pods and it was just an idea. So please chill out.

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You're*

I was criticising the idea, not the stats. I'm not "unchilled", but the idea was stupid and I even took the time to explain why rather than just flame you.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

I agree that the idea is stupid and thus i didnt use it, and i appreaciate the explination but the comment was intended to make fun of Shev and Kai, which obviously didn't get made across.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Given you are on record as saying Etd is the strongest race this round I'm not sure you're qualified to be making fun of anything I say.

Can we have someone competant doing this please?

Nice attempt at backtracking and trying to suck Kenny off though.

I don't completely agree with you to be honest. At this stage PA could do with almost any large change to save it from being the exact same game we've played for the last few rounds. There's no new strategy or niche to exploit, nothing to force people out of their comfortable method of gameplay. I don't think stats have that much to do with it and I'm certainly not saying that simply removing fi/co pods is particularly worthwhile, but repeating the same set of stats with some number tweaking isn't helping either.

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What? I... I... just dont even know what to say to this.

To this i fully agree. I asked Appocomaster to look into at least changing the gov/race stats to make something a bit different, I would love to see some kind of GAME CHANGING add-on to PA. Because as you said Its become kinda boring as everyone has there own strategy. I would even be fine with some non-game play effects. Like making a store in which you could trade XP for Roids/res/cp/rp/ships. Or even something as simple as adding a new type of ship.

I'm also gona say this, I am personally fond of Fi/co Especially Zik Fi/co, but i also understand that making stats balanced is the most important thing. As much as I'd like to make all 5 races have fi/co pods and make a mass fi/co round. I also want to give alliances the option of going Fr/De or Cr/Bs and have them be able to compete in the ranks and not just steamrolled by Fi/Co.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

QFT.

If PA team were to do something with the ETA like Patrikc suggested, then we could have a whole manner of options available.

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

100% wrong. Focusing all your ships into one metaclass will always make you a harder target early on, simply because there are more ships to kill in order to land for free, and it's also easier to prod out when all your ships are focused in one metaclass. QUite shocked you don't know this.

Also, "fr/de planet has to pick where to be strong against"... , what the hell? Having all your ships in one class means every race will struggle to hit you due to so much flack, and in fact it is the fico /crbs people who will struggle early on due to having to specializing their fleet in order to be able to attack something (usually leading to them being wide-open to one metaclass).

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Errr... WHAT? Why would every fi/co buildt be anti fr/de? Basically you are saying that people who go cr/bs class will build fico anti fr/de, my question then becomes; how are these planets going to stop fi/co? :p


That being said, OF COURSE there should be fi/co class pods. The problem, as always, is going to be to balance the fi/co fleets so they don't become over-powered. Personally I think it's fine if fr/de fleets are strong, but if half the uni is pure terran FR(as an example) then we are going to have a mind-numbingly boring last-half of the rounds. Every class needs to be viable to play, however, as previous experience have showed us, in order for fi/co not be overly dominant, the fr/de class has to be "stronger" than the fi/co class or there needs to be some massively annoying cr/bs class anti fi/co ship which kills 0-loss. The latter option sucks ass so strong fr/de is the way to go imo, just make sure it's not tooooo strong!

Re: R45 Stats Discussion
 

Hang on.. ill try and use examples here:

Fr/De player has for example 10k anti fi/co 4k anti fr/de 4k anti cr/bs ( he has massed against fi/co) - he has massed to stop fi/co attacks on him - but every fr/de and cr/bs team can hit him easily now.. If he massed either of the other 2 then he weak to the other 2 claases still and also has an alliance that cant defend him against fi/co

Fr/De player gets 6k of each ship - he has no area he has an overly strong anti in and still his alliance cant reach fi/co eta to help him

*If his alliance and himself also build fi/co based anti fi/co then thats a 4th ship that needs building - whereas cr/bs and fi/co planets will only have to build 3 all round - its means his offensive fleet is weaker overall compared to those fi/co and cr/bs planets who can build larger fleets quickly*

A fi/co planet build say 20k anti fi/co and 10k anti fr/de and no cr/bs at start, he is completely open to cr/bs attacks - but he is strong against fi/co and mediocre against fr/de - plus his fi/co alliance has the eta advantage against fr/de making it more likely for him to get fr/de defence at round start - he doesnt have to diverify into a 4th ship so his fleet will grow quickly and be more potent.

A cr/bs planet will normally build up say 8k anti fr/de and 3k anti cr/bs - he is a really bad target for fr/de planets to hit and mediocre against cr/bs - his alliance can defend against cr/bs and he will be able to build his 3rd ship as fi/co based against fi/co - so will his alliance and they will be able to defend him.


So how is fr/de better at round start? cos from how i look at it its the hardest meta class to land as planets will all have something to defend against it and fi/co and fr/de planets can make the eta as a team to defend it - and cr/bs planets are normally strong against it solo from the off.