r30 ship stats
 

Who's doing them? ;)

Can you give Ter a fi/co targeting BS so they're uber?


Now that that's out of the way, let's see some pre-season action jonny.

Re: r30 ship stats
 

After R28 where the grpy was a FR, then changed to DE for r29, I hope that at least thats stays the same.

A FI/CO targetting BS would be helpful, even if its on T3. It was either build DE+"Attack Cat" or BS+"Attack Xan". Perhaps make the dragon into a FI/CO killer.

Get rid of the ST killers, and give us ships that are more useful.

Wyvern Battleship Fr Co Fi
Dragon Battleship De Cr Bs

That changes the dynamic of it, and would i think make people build equal numbers.

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allowing a 100% bs fleet would be way too powerful, it was only possible with cat imo because they are underpowered almost no matter what is done to them, and having a fi or co that targeted cr/bs would put cr/bs at an disadvantage as they would have an extra tick for alliances to defend against them. If this was to be the case I think it would have to be with an emp ship like the viper in round 25.

while both options are interesting I would imagine they would both make balancing the stats rather harder.

if there are changes that are as big as this then I imagine there would be enough changes to other races that the 'attack cat' or 'attack xan' might change as well.

I dont think there is anything to stop there being more ships while keeping structure killers, the structure killers are a useful dynamic to the game that are probably still under used as they have the capability to really set back a planets development. The reason why there are not more ships is the fewer ships the simpler the stats are therefore the easier for everyone to understand and the more likely there is to be balanced stats.

is it not restrictive to be basing stats based on how many of that ship you think people will want to build, why does equal numbers matter?

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what do propose we then do to immune distwhores?
the SK has a purpose, clearly U didnt play r25 when it made a big difference with the whole of asc distwhoring!

As to Bs targeting fi/co I felt terr BS was excellent (offensively at least) anyway, if hypothetically they were to be made to target all It whould have to be something like Wyvern fr/co/fi Dragon cr/bs and Syren (as Cr?) hitting De giving the need both to have 3 ships and having a tertiary target hole for fi

ps I dont think this is at all a good scheme!

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BS CR have a hard time of landing as it is sometimes, with 2 ticks of def, adding a 3rd would be overkill.

i hope someone will change mantis in de or frig ship, it's the only ship that can kill unpunished. it has written lame all over it.

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i liked the mantis - it helped me alot; the rampant xan fi/co this round needed it, the fact so many landed against it shows it was not particularly terrifying.

It only works because its cat ofc and they dont kill well in other areas, its good that cats can close off one area to attack because they were so vulnerable in others, they were not even the best at emp last round.

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I didnt view the Mantis as such a huge problem this round, was a good way to balance out xan a bit imo.

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The fi/co targetting bs comment was a joke, but obviously nobody got it :/

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MrLobster sounded serious, hence I replied to him not you.

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Right, just wanted to clear that up though ;)

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I thought I'd post up what I'm doing. This is basically the results of about two hours work today. I quite like the direction I'm going in (obviously the most significant differences at this point are that I gave cath decent semi-conventional killships as opposed to gay things like the mantis or ships which suck and that every race bar zik has 3 pods). Obviously this is the first draft so I'd like people to comment on the direction they think these stats are going in as well as pointing out any flaws (obviously there'll be tons of those at this stage).


Edit: In terms of making emp work I decided to go along with gate's method from a couple of rounds ago where all t1s are the same.

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3 pods! well Im sure it will be fun to play, but i think i will avoid volunteering to DC with such an added complexity!

Re: r30 ship stats
 

...?

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Can we get a zik fi/co anti-bs/cr? I miss the days of a million zik fi anti-cr to use against cats :D

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im not sure it would change things really, as presumably everyone has a pod in each meta class(?) so you still work things out based on etas, or else on numbers as before.

means much more opportunity to fake tho :D

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That is exactly what I meant

I expect anything that fires from Cr/Bs to Fi/Co or vice versa counts as "gay things like the mantis"

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Whats being done to Xan's to stop them being OP?

They already have the ability to fake defence, fake attacks, and with 3 pod classes.. they'll have an even easier time faking.

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I vote for adding in more pod classes for all races.

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http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...JhZY38mC7PJ8Dw I forgot to post the actual link heh. (I've noticed for some bizzare the cath stealer doesn't have the t1 copied across, that should be de.

10% of all xan ships will randomly implode per tick. Srsly.


Obviously I'm aware of problems like xan being gud, I'm the one who's been pointing out how ****ing virtually impossible it is for xan to be underpowered for god knows how long now.

Yeah I too miss the days when zik were horrifically overpowered but for obvious reasons I'm going to try and avoid going down that path!



I'll try and say a bit more about my reasoning here. Essentially I wanted each race to be playable and interesting in more than one way, as in there's more than one way of playing it. To do this there are more ships in these stats than previous ones but they're also a bit more condensed into particular classes. Originally I was hoping to add more classes/different types of ships but unfortunately this isn't doable.

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I like the way things are going man, keep up the good work.

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I really like it except for one thing

The xan bs wtf pwns, brings back memories of being owned by xan cr r28 and just by the init its even better than they were as unlike then the rogue fires after the spec. Ofc it could be made of paper, i mean worse than normal for xan :p

however I ought to reserve judgement until armor and damage comes along

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There are a couple of things to consider. First xan research was faster (than normal) that round, I'd consider actually dropping its research speed from the current level for this. And obviously yeah a/c d/cs will be used to balance a lot of things.


I think if I could ask people two questions those would be, if you have a preferred race would you still go for it? If not why? And if you don't do you see any races you don't like? If so why?

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Dunno if Im blind or something; but I always miss something fundamental on first glance at a new stats set - I didnt see the Spec dosent hit CR! :p

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I would change from Zik to play Xan (FR+Pulsars) or Etd (Co or FR). I like the fact Cath freeze before Etd emp, I felt that was something wrong about last round's stats.

My first impression is that every race is playable. Terran perhaps is a little weak.

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That was something I changed.

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that explains it!!
good to see my input having an effect then :)

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Some people are so self involved :(

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Am i right in persuming that now that every race has 2-4 choices on which class they want to roid with? its going to cause more havoc for lower-level alliances having to deal with any class of incs from any race?

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I think the idea of 3 pods is brilliant. I'm not a big fan of having a 3rd race with steal ship, especially when it concern Caths and that they would be able to steal all kinds of kill ships.
The "logical' evolution of EMP is Subversion. I remember how weird it was to have a subvert race, but i wouldn't mind 1 subvert ship for the caths.
I was Ter last round, I could keep them with those stats with a FR/CR fleet.

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with just a quick glance at the set for now, I think it looks interesting.
But.. zik with 2 pods, and no fi/co. God dont force me to pick something else than zik :(

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A few points when looking at the stats:

the cutlass. Why is it co? Make it fi, and make sairs/cutl a serious option for ziks? as it is both are weak on their own, and with the thief in attackfleets, and better init not many will go for cutl... That being said - should be fairly doable for ziks to steal fi/co with this set..which again could make it useful, and zik quite interesting to play with! mmmmmmmm
but maybe remove the interceptor, and make the cutl fi.

make voyager and beetle innit 2. while the viper has init 3?
I hate mass emping same innit, forcing a full empcover for it to be usefull.
I like the spider having init 1 btw, but as it is, the voyager is useless vs cath co, and its useless with beets vs cath co. Give the viper init 3, and this is suddenly changed! :p

You kinda force ziks on a cr path with the init advantage on steal. cr contra fr. FR ziks = easy pickings for CR ziks.

The cath FR stealer: none of the fr/de attack fleets have FR as t1. Already a good sign for a stealship.
Then add the fact that it can have free pickings from 2-3 of em. pwn sign for a stealship :p
Then add the fact that it can already freeze most of it on its own, and it just looks way too good. This ship better be fking shit, or you are forcing me to go cath.

right, enough pa for now! just some quick thoughts, most of em not well thought through and incorrect I spose! :p

( I like more podsclasses btw )

Re: r30 ship stats
 

I don't think it'll make for a significant difference to be honest. You still just au scan, see what the fleet is and send anti-whatever it is coming. Sure faking might come back more into it but I don't see that as a bad thing at all.

I was told a while ago subversion wouldn't be possible to put back in.

Disagree entirely. I think emp sucks enough that crippling its natural advantages (always firing) is pretty shitty (we all saw how bad cath cr fleets ended up last round). The only exception I've made for this is the widow which fires at t2 and obviously doesn't make ally eta.

I actually think it's better as a co class ship as it's a) targetted t2 by the emp ships (although there won't be a massive drop off and b) it requires a specific ship, the vsh to be built versus it. Remember the only other co class anti-co ships are both emp (ie it doesn't really matter that much if they're zero loss versus you). As well as this it gives you an immediate option for flakking any co you steal which I've always considered to be a necessary part of things for zik. And yeah what I'm trying to do is make it so zik can steal relatively well to fill in their fleet.

I'll be messing around with zik cr/bs, particularly relative to xan bs (I'll try something after I finish this post if you want to have a look).

I'd imagine if it sticks like it is now, it's something I have questions over myself, it'd be weaker than a conventional zik stealship, something akin to the thief from last round maybe.


Edit: Added the peacekeeper for xan, changed the init bit for the bucc.

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the thief wasnt that shit in comparison to the cutl though,was it? And this combo can give kickass additions to a cath fleet.. So make it shit plz.

regarding the cutl, well I dont know. at a first glance I d prefer it as fi if I went zik myself. Mainly to strengthen the sair while prodding cutl. Make the interceptor CO! :p would be more useful ship then. As it is, I dont see it being built way too much.

I ll be around tonight on irc if u want any help / inputs :o

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Man etd looks pretty cool with 4 pods I must say, although I assume their efficiencies arent going to be a rediculously good on the emp ships as last round?

Every race look playable and picking a 'best' fleetsetup for each race seem somwhat hard without knowing how the uni pans out.

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If we could find a round in recent memory when cath have been overpowered I'd be more concerned but yeah I'll keep an eye on it.

Yeah woo, overpower my race!

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u get the point!

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http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=stats

First draft for you all to peruse.

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I love cath.

I feel sorry for zik with only 2 pods, give them a third pod and make it fair?

Seriously though cath is ace I wanna play cath again, this is bad:(

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It should be fairly easy to cap some pods as zik with so much pods around tho.

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Ouch! A shiver just ran down the full length of my spine.

Maybe I'm prejudiced against Zik (actually there's not much "maybe" about it) - but I'm against any suggestion that stealing should be easier. Experience tells me that (easier) stealing just results in (more) "lowbie bashing".

Still, plenty of time for things to develop. I'm not meaning to criticise the stats - just that specific concept. Keep up the good work, JBG. :)

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He isnt saying that stealing is going to be easier, but that it will be a higher likelyhood of stealing something useful that complements your fleet rather than useless ships which only can be used as flack.

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I usually go Terran or Xan, and I'd pick either one again with these stats. Leaning towards Terran though.

Nice job JBG, this is the first interesting set of stats in ****ing ages.

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Terran looks rather weak. The Fr fleet seems useless. For attack I'd go with a Cr fleet. Bs seems useless as they are owned by Spectres and Rogues, plus all emp ships have them as T1. Not going for fr will leave a gaping fi/co hole. Closing it with WarFrs or Pegs will be practicly impossible AND will leave you with a lot of resources in ships that will just sit there. They will be of little help when your alliance sends def and cannot be used to help defend your alliance. I'd rather see the Pegasus as a Co or Fi, like last round's Harpy. It's not much help the way it is now. There is nothing to defend your alliance with.

Cathaar looks nice. I was considering going cath before the round and I might go through with that with current stats. I'm not sure the mantis is a good idea. I liked the old mantis more: a fantastic ship that could help defend yourself, but not be used for your alliance. Better make it target De or Fr. Cath need ships that can help defend their weaknesses without making it an über race.

Xan look strong as usual.
The Zik Fr fleet looks just as useless as the Terran one. The Cr fleet is just as bad. You need to get lucky with your steals early on or you'll be sorry for picking this race. Better give them a Fi pod.
Etd look solid again.

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Funny U should say that of the zik Cr which apart from the rogue targeting only Bs is fairly similar to this round.

As to your terran comment I think terr have the choice of going Fr/De and being hard to hit by Fi/Co but easy to hit with Cr/Bs or going for Bs/Cr + pegs and being easy to hit with Fi/Co

It seems like most races have to make a similar trade off in these stats; this is partly because all the Fr/De are very vulnerable to Cr/Bs - only the widow has anything like a decent initiative shooting up; it worked this round because there was hordes of Widows and Specs not in attack fleets available to defend but if a cat goes De or a xan Fr then their Widows/Bombers will be out, the bomber is also poor in comparison to the spec.

That also leads me to a general point of interest, which is only partially stats related, will there be less defence available overall because there are theoretically fewer ships which are not in attack fleets - because of the additional pods?

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Cath DE look very strong. Then it depends how you use the locust.
I wonder how a all FR xan would do, building only 2 ships + pods.

I expect a lot more dist whores with these stats, which isn't bad as it gives a real alternative to Finance Centers.

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You will see people build a few more dists but noone will properly dist whore again until fcs get capped again.

Its just not possible to keep up.

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I agree with Benneh.

"will there be less defence available overall because there are theoretically fewer ships which are not in attack fleets - because of the additional pods?"

I am not quite sure to be honest, I think there will be few people who attack with less than two fleets a night but there might also be the possibility that seeing as planets have 2\3 attackfleets they are able to defend with the one most needed by their alliance and then attack with the 1\2 others.

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I don't think it's viable for people to have 3 distinct attack fleets, so whichever ships are not in the 2 attack fleets can be used as defence. I don't foresee a change from last round. The only difference will be that some people have attack fleets A and B, while using C and remainder as defence, and some people will have attack fleets B and C while using A and remainder as defence.


Ideally, I'd like to see 6 global pods, available to each race, on which they can build their own attack fleets.

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Really not getting what you've said here.. looking at stats the only ship that will cause cr problems is the mantis. But i do agree with making the Pegasus a fi/co so that there is some sort of natural def ship for going ter cr.

Apart from that stats look pretty good!

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Er, you'd probably want to ignore anything about t1 and t2 emps, I used gate's thing where they're all targetted in the same fashion so there's no issue over cr being that much harder to emp than bs. I think most of them are pretty close at the minute although fi/fr/bs is slightly easier to emp at the minute but not due to them being t1 (as due to the intention of the stats I mean).

I too would almost consider playing cath. Zik being left a pod short is deliberate as a) they can steal easily b) this encourages you to go out and steal and c) stealing is something all ziks should be looking towards doing with these stats.

Game mentioned this to me as well. To be honest I'll probably create a harpy, fi class t1 co t2 fi. I do recognise that terran are a bit weak under this set and I'm attempting to compensate with greater efficiencies for the fr and bs fleets. Terran are a very easy race to underpower in my opinion but when you're able to concentrate your already heavy armour it can be a fantastic race (as we saw last round with terran de).

You said this back in r26 gerbie (I remember everything). I disagree with your interpretation of zik. High efficiencies have been proven to work fantastically well for zik.

Stealing is what zik is about. We're really talking about an entirely different race if we're talking about minimising the impact of stealing.

Hopefully, diversity is cool. I have asked pateam to reintroduce the fc cap so we'll have to see there.

This is something I did deliberately because I feel the game can benefit immensely from more choice, and definitely from more people recognising that there is a choice. Last round I posted on the ascendancy.tv forums when we went to war that 3 fleet defending isn't a bad tactic sometimes. Sometimes it makes more sense to defend than to attack, namely when what you stand to lose outweighs what you can gain (this is relative to your gal/alliance as well). If there is one thing I'd like to be able to say about my stats set it's that it might make more people think about PA.