Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6584661.stm
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It's comparable to two very different examples, one from history and one from the present-day. What they both have in common is their influence on American society today. The first is the Black civil rights movement in America in the 1950s and 60s. Rosa Parks was being deified in the American press only 18 months ago for her refusal to move to the back of the bus because she was black. Now the same situation is occuring again, this time on gender lines. The second is the treatment of women by fundamentalist Islam. I don't need to go into details here do I? Suffice it to say that in the final paragraphs of that BBC News article you might think you're reading about Pakistan, not Israel. I wonder whether or not the American media will pick up on this :rolleyes: |
Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.
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To put it in context, a TV2 (Populist channel in Norway) did a news report last week on a priest that had molested his stepdaughter since the age of 3 and raped her in puberty. Then, 15 minutes later they did a big debate on women in Islam with from a pretty racist standpoint. It was kinda ironic but also very sad. I do not disagree that fundamentalist Islam have a big problem on womens rights, but so does many fundamentalists and other people as well. |
Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.
o israel, you poster child for middle eastern democracy you
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I forget what the precise order is called but tthere is an episode of (I think) Panorama which was very interesting. *Disclaimer: this post may or may not have any relevance to this thread. |
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Are you sure that the big fat heavy pregnant women weren't all herded to the back of the bus because of a suspension problem towards the front?
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.
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Women and men are different in a lot more of a substantial way than black and white people. Having separate toilets for white and black people wouldn't make any sense whereas there's some reasoning behind different toilets for different genders. (Although, having said that, in my favourite night club they have unisex toilets which greatly improves the atmosphere / socialising / etc). In a very different way, women only carriages in Japan are one (albeit unsatisfactory) solution to a problem there. I believe the idea has been raised of having a similar thing on certain late night tubes so women feel more safe using public transport. And even now some people will give up their seat to a woman, even if she is not pregnant, holding shopping, elderly, etc. The point is, I can think of numerous ways I'd personal think it justified to treat a woman slightly differently from a man, but none for someone who was of a different race. The problem is as always one of power relations. Black Americans wanted to end segregation on buses not because they just wanted to be close to their white brothers, but because the back of the bus equated (as always) to the shit end of the deal. Seperate but equal always almost ends up being unequal if there's no reasonably equal sharing of power behind the arrangement. Segregation is the symptom of the wider problem of patriarchy within the (frankly totally nuts) orthodox Jewish communities (the ones who throw stones at ambulances if they dare work on Yom Kippur). Anyway, Jewish women deserve some of the blame for all this. A whole bunch of them buy into a religion founded on a text which explicitly grants them an inferior status. No-one likes an Uncle Tom (or an Aunt Tovah). |
Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.
its pretty retarded/wrong, but:
1) Far worse things happen in hundreds of countries across the world and the continual focus on Israel rather than places doing more unseemly is obviously motivated by anti-semitism/americanism on some level - perhaps not by the people who pick up the story (ie you), but by those who are setting the agenda for debate. 2) Its not government enforced segregation and the people on the bus have no way to enforce their nonsense if others dont want to go along with it. This obviously doesnt make it acceptable, but it does make it slightly more benign than (eg) the history of black segregation in America/South Africa/whatever. 3) I dont think this applies to all buses, I believe most are normal. 4) Youre nuts if you think this is directly comparable to the position of women in Islamic countries. But yeah, orthodox jews have too much influence in Israel politics, I thought we all knew this already. |
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Where one party (A) enforces segregation on the other (B) then B is automatically inferior to A. There's no way of escaping that. Quote:
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Dont see the problem.
Woman belong in the back of the bus. |
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You can find the rest out from Wikipedia. |
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"fluffles"
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Islam didn't enforce women to got to the back of the bus. Wahhabists did. I used to live in Saudi Arabia. Seen it happen. |
Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.
When I was at school it was only the cool kids who got to sit at the back of the bus anyway. So I don't know what these women are complaining about. I'd have loved to be able to sit back there.
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Truth is that Israel is just as sexist as the rest of the middle east and this world is a long way off from equality for race, religion, sex or gender, age, ect. |
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A woman in Israel yesterday A woman in Iran yesterday....well, we think it's a woman anyway. Just go with us on this one, OK? |
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If you want to take up the issue of gender in society, then why don't we look at pornography?
So the degradation they experience is voluntary, but what is not voluntary is the view that these women may perpetuate in the rest of society in the minds of men. A lot fo pornography shows sexually degrading and submissive acts performed and seemingly accepted by the women that take part in this. There are some men who will believe this is how things really are with everyone around the round. So, can we judge society's beliefs of pronography and its effect on the perception of gener in society based one man's reaction to his pornographic viewing experience? In the same way you can't judge Islam based on a few archaic beliefs on gender issues. It would seem to me that the people putting these women down are not necessarily prejudiced against women but rather extremely conservative. This may however, encourage prejudicial actions against women who don't conform to the traditional gender roles of women in society. In addition, are we sure this is about women being forced into these situations or is it the men being forced into it? I'm not saying it's not a dire situation where gender is still a basis for such extreme division, although undoubtedly there is a gender divide in the Western developed countries too, it is just less profound; but, and this may be in danger of moral relativism, in situations such as this are women really suffering? You don't derive your happiness from where you sit on a bus, nor from the side of the street you walk on, and neither do your clothes provide you any great happiness. Like I said, it is not an enviable situation for these women and it may well indeed have a negative effect on their lives, but maybe we should be looking at it in terms of a "happiness index" to judge how much these things actually affect their lifestyles and themselves. |
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I'm also sure that these ultra-conservatives would be more than happy to have female Rabbis. Quote:
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what the hell kaneed made a useful contributing post
it seems that all those private tutoring session nodrog has been giving him have finally paid off! |
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In order to redress the balance and pay suitable umbrage to your sensibilities, I Googled 'Iranian Pornography' and 'Israeli Pornography' to see what the big, wide Internet world thinks about the subject. 1) Iranian Pornography. Link 1: Man executed for...producing pornographic videos 2) Israeli Pornography Link 3: Jewish Dominance in the Porn Industry Hmmm... |
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One country has a strong stance against the issue due to religious beliefs and the other just don't really care (i.e., they're not even orthodox as I believe non-orthodox Jews are really not so religious).
What's your point? |
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But, on topic, how does this relate to Travler's post that says Israel is just as bad as every other country in the Middle East?
What are you trying to achieve? |
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That and he's never been right about anything else, so putting out information such as I have is 99.9% sure to put me on the proper side of 'wrong' |
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Dead_Meat, still not holding back, nice.
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Petition for thread name to be changed to "Black people rear their ugly heads...again."
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But it really doesn't answer his comment. After all, the bbc link is talking about orthodox Jews, not the other ones (who allow pornography). :shrug: |
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Pornography is a bad example anyway. Western society (including non-orthodox Jewish society) has a predilection to focus on women as sex-objects. How is that different from Islamic society's predilection to focus on women as anything but? [Edit] To make things clear, the predilection to focus on women as sex-objects is sexist, as far as I'm concerned. Women aren't just a pair of tits etc. And both Islam and Western society use social norms to enforce their respective perspective on what women should and should not do: show their body and definitely not show their body. |
Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.
Tend to agree with Weeks. If the West (in this case, meaning Europe and the United States) want to take pride in their enlightened attitudes to women then fair enough, but I wouldn't recommend picking an industry where there is a strong tendency towards degrading women to pretty violent extremes on occassion* as a model of best-practice.
(Yeah, it's formally consensual but given the economic context this behaviour occurs in, and the fact some of the people involved seem to be borderline mentally ill, I'm not sure that's the catch all defence we might hope.) * At least, in most of the porn I end up downloading. :( |
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theres always difficulties finding porn thats neither too violent or not violent enough
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Beyond a certain point (in terms of violence), it all seems a bit ridiculous anyway, as if it's some kind of cartoon. Also, there's obviously usually a curve of attractiveness of woman vs. the stuff she'll let be done to her, and it's finding the sweet point that's the knack (in real-life as well for that matter).
Also, as we're on the subject of porn, is anyone actually turned on particularly by most gang bang porn? "Wow, it'd be great to be with all my mates, (incidentally who all have their cocks out), ****ing a relatively unattractive Latino girl in a bunch of degrading and painful ways! Oh good, my cock is touching another guys while we're both in her arse, this is now officially the best day ever!" I don't really get it. |
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Thats because you're so hetero it hurts :p
Obviously quite a few people are turned on by it else it wouldn't exist. The 'black on blonde' specifically black on 'cheating wife/gf' subgenre seems to largely centre on possible guilt/cuckold feelings white american men have towards black american men (presumably because of racial stereotyping); it isn't that difficult to go from that to 'omg 3 men' etc. In britain we seem to prefer our wimmin cheating on us with other wimmin (there isn't as big an interracial taboo). There doesn't seem to be an absolute limit on the degeneracy of men; which doesn't bode well for the future. Personally i find a certain thrill with pornstars who don't 'look' like they should be in porn getting degraded, and then obviously despising them for going to that level. Once they can take it all up the arse and grunt without caring im not interested :( Theres probably a niche for 'psychological porn' similar to meatholes type interviews - where the actual depravity is less important (or non existent) than making the girls cry at the thought of their mothers/fathers/siblings watching them. To paraphrase Woody Allen, sex isn't right unless its dirty, and if they don't feel dirty it isn't porn. |
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edit: I almost exclusively watch amateur/homemode porn; theres something obviously insincere and shallow about professional stuff. Its like the difference between corporate pop music, and music where the artists actually have some degree of integrity (while taking it up the butt). |
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http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA330181999 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1414137.ece Quote:
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I'm slightly confused are we comparing insane people within certain countries, their governments, or a mixture of the two?? I'm not really sure if theres any point in comparing two distant countries in any manner if it doesn't affect me (assuming im not an activist); regardless for completeness its worth pointing out that the sub-continent as a whole doesn't function on 'social levels' that are easily separable into things like misogyny, after all India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka have all elected female Presidents/Prime Ministers in the last 50 years.
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Oh and i generally don't like homemade porn; nods response made me consider why and its probably because the woman is enjoying it. :(
This probably has something to do with me not seeing porn until my late teens and having deep mental issues of it being wrong somehow. |
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Oh, and bored of porn. |
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My wife thinks the problem is because of the large non-jewish population in Isreal that is the root cause of the sexual discrimination from the article. I do apologize but my tin foil hat is at the cleaners right now. |
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I seriously doubt anyone on this forum values her opinion at all :( |
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