Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

As 1-X states they target vulnerable people. Those that require a charitable contribution are easy targets for groups to take advantage which no matter what you say that's what the church did to you. They including propaganda material as part of their charitable gift to prey on your vulnerabilities and/or to guilt trip you into joining their 'cult' .

Its actually pretty despicable and not at all charitable and certainly doesn't seem to be very Jesus like

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I don't know whether to take you lot seriously sometimes. Why on earth do you claim to hate religion so much? It just seems silly. Chelsea is a much more obvious target. I mean, God might not exist, but Jose Mourinho sure does and he's a twat.
It's more than a little disingenuous to point out that most charity goes to the vulnerable. I don't hear too many people complaining that it's unfair that hopsitals only care for the sick, for example. I actually think that doing good in the name of someone or something other than oneself is a pretty good thing and something to be thankful for. Likewise, to think of charity as a duty or an obligation is infinitely preferable to thinking of it as someone's right.

And the doll is pretty awful.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

No one said they hated religion.

The arguments so far fall into the following broad concepts:

1) Christmas wasn't christian to begin with so the de-christianisation of christmas is no bad thing

2) It's wrong to take advantage of the poor and those in a bad situation merely to advertise your religious beliefs.

3) Travler has absurd religious beliefs which include believing that god answers his prayers when ever something goes write but when something goes wrong it has nothing to with god

4) Travler annoys people by ignoring their valid counter arguments and just spamming the same lies and rubbish.

- I also fail to see why you always have to step into a debate if it mentions christianity and start supporting the 'christian side' even when it is so obviously wrong

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I quite like Jose Mourinho.


"Places like this are the soul of English football. The crowd is magnificent, singing '**** off Mourinho' and so on" - Mourinho after the recent game at Bramall Lane, beating Sheffield United 2-0.

"We didn't win? For me it was 2-1, we scored two goals, two beautiful goals. Normally this is a victory. For me, for my players, for our feelings, we won the game." - After drawing 1-1 with Everton in October 2005, ending a nine-game winning streak. Classic Mourinho.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

'Christmas' is plainly a Christian festival. It's really quite silly to claim otherwise. Christmas did, of course, supercede an ealier pagan festival (how rude) but these things happen. Yorkshire locals were once Danish. My mother was born with a different surname. There was once a supermarket called Safeway but it is now part of a chain called Morrisons. In these things I have just had to let go of the past.
I'm sure there are some Christians willfully taking advantage of the needy in order to evanglise coldly, hypocritically and nastily, without any sincere desire to help. Still, these are a minority, who are not behaving as Christians should and often do, and they're being a damn sight more helpful than if they were sitting at home philosophising on the death of God or playing Risk online or something.
Instead of ridiculing Travler, perhaps we all could dedicate some time to helping the disadvantaged. We should have a Good Deeds thread, sarcasm-free, a safe place in which to admit that we're not all cold, yellowing nerds who spend far too much time in dark rooms, but rather nice people who help old ladies across busy roads.
I get involved because I don't like the smug, officious and misinformed attitudes that are always aired in these kinds of discussions. It's perfectly fine to disagree, it's great to hold opinions vehemently, but I get riled by the Dawkins-esque arrogance of it all. Admittedly, a lot of the religious are equally as foolish and self-righteous in these things and it's terribly hard to resist giving them big fat slaps such as 'Prof' Dawkins so richly deserves, but the world would be a friendlier place if we resisted the temptation, wouldn't it?

Furball: I'm sorry, I just hate him. :(

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

The only smug, officious or missinformed attitudes in this thread have come from travler.

My first reply to you was to correct your disingenuous claims. I had hoped you would not try the same tactic again.

Add something to the discussion or get out.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

What claims?

I think I've contributed some smashingly well-meaning dissent to this most seasonal discussion of ethical dialectics between the most brilliant minds of our generation. Good show.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I don't hate religion. I dislike publicised religion. I've never felt the need to run around talking about how great my personal beliefs are or how people vaguely associated with me did x,y,z great things. What's wrong with naturalistic secularism guys? :(

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Yeah,


but you think hell is real.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

JBG: Nothing at all. You fellows are pretty great.

Needless to say, I bet you've shouted about your local football team at some point, and you don't even believe that they've saved you from sin, condemnation and quite possibly damnation.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

No I don't. Then again, you never asked, which is pretty much how things go around here.

PS. Well, I'm fairly sceptical, anyhow. I can't say I'm wholly free of the whole pathological guilt thing, but it only tends to surface occasionally.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Actually the way things go around here is as follows:

'People have a perfectly valid development of ideas on a topic which involves religion. You chip in; slyly trying to imply that to point out the flaws in doctrine equates to being 'anti-religious'. I pick you up on the logical falsehood of your argument. You type a few generic 'goodwill' comments then run away.'

I just wish you wouldn't get involved.

You never debate. You never actually respond. Then after a while you you post 'let's all be nice to each other' and go away.

I get bored easily.

Hence You are as a moth to a flame :(

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

the presence of his local football team is accepted as likely by the people he raves about them to.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

But that's not how it goes at all:

1. Travler posts.

2. Everyone flames.

3. I insist that Christians aren't horrible and stupid and try and point out where people are just being plain old silly;

4. You disagree;

5. I disagree;

6. You flame;

7. I get pissed off with your stupidness and leave for another couple of months.

8. You flame again, probably throwing in some casual reference to Oxford;

9. You neg-rep me.

10. I can't resist calling you stupid. Then I go to bed.


4-10 are generally repeated ad infinitum.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Prayer is always good. Speaking it allows you to be certain what you are asking for.

It's human nature for believers to thank God when things go their way. It's also natural to need God more when things don't your way. Good things happen we thank God. Bad things happen we don't feel God in our lives and need him more. Either way it's about his glory.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I dunno. I bet whoever supports Swindon Town has had to protest that they still exist. And they would certainly have to justify their beliefs pretty vehemently, which is the point.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

you said it was about human nature.

so basically god is like food. the only obvious difference being that food seldom tells you that homosexuality is evil

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I support barcelona because they play the beautiful game :) :) :)


Also I only talk about football with people I know are also interested in talking about football. Frankly I have little to no interest in being told about how I'm destined for hell (which travler actually has told me at least once in the past to my best recollection).

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Difference is that once you have God you no longer hunger for peace of mind.

Yahwe you once told me that you would love to be a father. The only person stopping that from happening is you. Not genetics. Not sexual orientation. Just your choice. Debate it all you want but this is the simple truth.

I am not trying to attack you Yahwe if that is how you might percieve this. I am just trying to point out that some of the things you want are already available to you.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I think it was more about your choice. I don't know if you are destined for hell. That's between you and God. Accordiing to some beliefs if you were Christened as a baby then you are saved and going to heaven.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I percieve that you do not understand what you are saying. You do not understand the evil you are prosletising.

I percieve that you genuinely enjoy your absurd beliefs.

You prefer to live in a dichotomy.

Good, evil, right, wrong, black, white; like a child you find it comforting to live in this escapist fantasy.

Unfortunately you term it religion. You bastardise doctrine that you do not understand. You pervert tolerence and liberalism to a state whereby it is the very opposite of what it began as.

What I do not percieve is you reading other peoples posts. Nor do I percieve you thinking.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Maybe I misread travler's post there... possible I did.

But did you just say that it's Yahwe's choice? Can you actually force someone to be aroused by a particular gender? I've heard of these little 'support groups' {read: camps} over here that can allegedly convert homosexuals to heterosexuals after a period of time... I can't help but wonder how exactly that works.

At any rate, travler, can you honestly come on here and immediately change your sexual orientation so that you are attracted to other males? Can you change yourself so that the thought of male anatomy turns you on?

You seem to be implying that homosexuality is similar to a lightswitch, where it's a personal thing that can be switched on and off at will, which is something undoubtedly half of the gay community would be laughing at you for even trying to attempt to flog that point off. Apart from perhaps sheer coercion such as those camps mentioned earlier, how exactly does one 'change' their orientation?

And... off topic of this, one final little question. I'm fairly content with my life right now. There is nothing missing for me in terms of a career, athletic ability, social ability, and all round general things that I enjoy doing. Admittedly, I have no relationship right now, but that's not something which is causing me any distress. My peace of mind is sound, and I am more or less a stable individual. I do not need god in order to accomplish this, nor have I ever.

It seems to me that those that need god in their lives in order to feel secure, satisfied, and otherwise happy with themselves are completely weak-minded individuals and are not able to rely on their own human self to get them through life. Is this type of people the ones that should be leading others like 'lost sheep'?

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

A combination of intense Christian indoctrination (i.e. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN, GOD SAYS SO AND THOU SHALT DO AS THOU ART MOTHER****ING TOLD, it's the word of God, blah blah blah) and severe pressure to make the unhappy camper believe that they are a freak and must repress these feelings.


The 'successful' end product is a person who is still a homosexual (or whatever), but one who has been forced to repress this via the most powerful tool available - religion. They're not allowed to be gay. It's not that they're not gay anymore.



If anyone wants to post some Google links, it'd probably come in handy - I tried searching for "homosexual camps" but just got a bunch of results for the Scissor Sisters :(

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

So... prayer has nothing to do with God? Its just a Christian version of a Blackberry?

"Dear Lord: breakfast at 8:15, call mother at 9:00, meeting with the staff at 10:15... Oops, wait, thats supposed to be at 10:30. Thank God I prayed. His will be done."

See, traveller, you were doing so well for a while there. Its not Human nature, its religious nature, but other than that I agree with you.

Until the last bit. 'Bad things happen we don't feel God in our lives and need him any more'.

So, since you didn't explain that, I can see it as being interpreted two ways: Either if you don't believe, God punishes you with bad things, or if you DO believe, God rewards you with good things, and withholds rewards from non-believers.

Either way, by that interprettion, God is a dick. This in the end is the problem I have with this particular view of an interventionist God, that somehow he intervenes for his faithful when the ask for it, and ignores the rest. This view is utterly incompatable with the notion of a 'Good' God. It lays out a structure where God rewards Loyalty and punishes disloyalty, and doesn't care about broader concepts as good or evil. If I am a 'Good' person, in fact if I am an exemplary person, but do not believe, then I am withheld reward, and admittance into heaven. In other words, my lack of belief supercedes any inherent good or evil of my actions.

That God is arrogant, petty and vain by definition.


Oh, and for the record, I have no problem with religion, nor with many religious charities. I spoke the praises of the Salvation Army earlier, who help anyone without prostheletizing or caring who they are or what they believe.

My problem comes with conversionist religions, especially those arrogant SOBs who wander the world free of doubt or critical thought, assured that since THEY are right and EVERYONE else is wrong, their actions can be justified by the rightness.

That goes from the extreme of the abortion clinic bomber (working for God of course), to the congregation whoscream out against the unholiness of homosexuality thanks to the asinine drivel that is Leviticus, to the Statesman who decides he will ONLY fund those third world charity clinics that do not promote abortion.


So when you 'thank God' for allowing these talking Jesus dolls to be distributed to needy children, I ask myself would a loving God have intervened in this case? Would a God have seen the need for 1000 talking Jesus dolls to be of clear and present significance enough to warrant divine intervention? Cause somebody might want to alert him about Darfur. Maybe those people weren't praying hard enough (before they were raped and slaughtered by the Janjaweed).

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Seeing as Boogster claims those posting “Hate Religion” and due to the fact I regularly post on these threads I thought I would reply with my stance.

Do I hate religion? Yes and No. While I have no problem with people having faith and believing in a higher being I hate religious organisations with a passion. These are group’s setup to raise self appointed leaders into a position of power with the view of imposing their views on others through fear. These organisations aren’t anything to do with a god, they are man abusing peoples faith and insecurities. The bibles a perfect example of this, so much faith is put in this book’s accuracy because in the words of Travlers beloved Pastor Chuck

If this isn’t selective editing then I don’t know what is. I mean

1. Author must have met and spoken to Jesus – I have met and spoken to Maria Sharapova but does that make me a valid source to write a book about her just on the single meeting. I haven’t met George Best but I could write a book claiming I had and it would be hard to disprove. Also I am not the Archbishop of Canterbury but what’s to stop me writing a book as him. And we are now living in a period where validating information is a lot easier than its ever been and it will continue to get easier but even then if enough time lapses it gets harder. Back when the current canon was formed it was hundreds of years after the reports were supposedly written so how did they decide who is who they claim they are, who had met Jesus and who had enough contact to be a reliable first hand witness
2. If It contradicted others it was thrown out – Who says that the others aren’t wrong and the contradictorily source isn’t right. And human beings can view the same things differently so is a few different perspectives really valid for throwing a whole source out
3. It had to be agreed by everyone – People don’t agree on most things, even in a smallish group of like minded people such as this will see only parts that fit in with the core beliefs being agreed and anything else will be discarded. So its hardly reliable is it
4. They prayed to be guided to make the right decisions – So basically that’s saying they edited the bible based on gut feelings. While at times peoples gut feelings can be right but at the same time they can be wrong as our beliefs, social surroundings and our upbringing can all affect it

It’s simply not a reliable text because of this, if it was to be reedited today in such a manner it would see the church crucified in the same way that Michael Moore is whenever he releases a new book or documentary due to it being so 1 sided and heavy handed that any real points it makes are masked by the attempts to boost ego’s and to force the same beliefs onto others

Anyway if you want to have faith then go ahead and have it, I have no problem with anyone finding ways help them get through life be it by having faith in God or Buddha or Allah, or Satan, or Aliens or even Science.

I can probably even tolerate you belonging to and actively practising an ‘organised religion’ (A grouping which I include not only the main religions but also any other ‘cult’ like spiritual group for example scientology) if you choose to by your own free will and haven’t been scared into following the religion, or preyed upon as your in a vulnerable situation and when you make that choice you and your group then start preaching your religion to others and trying to impose your beliefs onto others. Some people believe that women have a right to have abortions and it’s a difficult choice for them so you shouldn’t be making them feel guilty for their choice and homosexuality is something some people are born with. It’s not some illness that can be cured. Just like a heterosexual they need support to help them come to terms with their sexuality not made to feel guilty by a bunch of bigots.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Righto. This is where you lose me. I'm just not sure how you justify your reaction to organised religion. It doesn't seem wholly rational to generalise in such a narrow fashion. Do you honestly believe that every religious leader in the world is some kind of machiavellian despot? After giving it some thought, can you even be sure that the majority of religious leaders are manipulative obligarchs? How many religious people in positions of authority do you know personally?
I'm interested: do you also, for example, think that all poor people steal? That all girls wear pink? That no politician ever has good intentions? Yahwe has already helpfully reminded us of those hazy greys that cloud our moral judgement. Do you not think that applies here?
Though I don't know anythinlg about your upbringing I've attended church all of my life. According to my experience there are quite definitely negative aspects to organised religion. There is a tendency to become unhelpfully caught up in celebrity; there is opportunity for misuse of power; and there is often a crude and distasteful obsession with numbers and aggressive evangelism. This stuff exists, clearly, but it does not warrant this bizarrely simplistic, and wholly objectionable, categorisation of a huge number of people.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I'm sorry but I can't support anything to do with Christmas prior to the first day of December. Christmas lasts too long even at that.

I have a hard time being jolly at Christmas but that may be because of the ten years I spent as a postal worker.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Your reading a possible implied message rather than the actual words. Lets review:
1. Yahwe has stated that he is gay therefore he would not normally engage in intercourse with a woman resulting in pregnancy.
2. Yahwe has stated a desire to be a father.
3. I stated that Yahwe could choose to be a father.

So we have 3 basic points.

If Yahwe choose to be a father he has several ways to achieve this.
1. Yahwe has intercourse with a female(s) until one concieves and gets pregnant. The easiest option in terms of financial and may be easiest to achieve provided that Yahwe's desire to be a father outweighs his normal homosexual tendancies. Highly unlikely but its the cheap way out.
2. Yahwe adopts a child. Expensive and time consuming. May be difficult to achieve as a homosexual even in a relationship as some aspects of society still do not give equal treatment to alternative lifestyles.
3. Yahwe pays for a woman to be artificially inseminated with his genetic contribution. The woman can be lesbian or straight depending on the agreement. I have heard of lesbian woman and gay men cooperating in this manner to have both parties aquire children. The lesbian couple gets a child from the gay partners and the gay partners get a child from the lesbian couple. 2 Children 4 adults 2 families and then maybe they all remain friends.

Point being that Yahwe can choose a path that suits him to achieve his desires but the simplest path is the one made for him. He only has to overcome himself for the cheap option. The other options are still available but his desire to achieve these must be greater as they require more work.

I saw a funny movie about one of these turn the gays and lesbians straight camps and the movie ended with everyone just lying about to their parents about who they really were. You cannot force someone to change. Change comes from within. You might get a reaction but it has to be up to the person to desire to change.

I cannot change Yahwe. I don't want to change Yahwe. In truth from what I have read I'm not so sure he would make a good parent. Kids need strict boundaries and absolutes to learn what is right and what is wrong. He might teach his children a world of grey where stealing is ok if you don't get caught but helping others is not always right or something.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

No I haven't.

P.S. You're a Moron

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I however didn’t comment on the individuals but the organisations as a whole. The individuals are largely unimportant because no matter how pure their intentions the tools they have at their disposal to try and fulfil their intentions undermine their actions. They are using an organisation that was both arrogant enough to believe they are infallible and have intelligence to comprehend and retell the teachings of a higher being and which seemingly used the religion to further their own agendas through the use of condemnation and fear. And now these blatant lies and bigoted beliefs are held as the absolute truth and used to justify despicable actions that seemingly contradict the core elements of that religion and just make the world a worse place for everyone to live in

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I think that if God is real and had an option of giving yourself or Yahwe a kid, Yahwe would win every time. After all if God created humans he did so by making us different from pretty much every animal we know of. Our brain is able of a lot of things that other animals cant do and one of the most important things our brain allows us to do is be free thinking and inventive. So if there is a God he clearly wanted us to question things, not act like cheep and to constantly better ourselves and increase our knowledge.

This means you as a ‘mindless drone’ that isn’t able to be critical and free thinking are a lot less ‘worthy’ than Yahew. In fact I’d go as far as saying you would be considered a ‘sinner’ in the eyes of any God as great as the one you worship as your betraying the gifts he gave you and attempting to stop others from using the gifts either. As such any kid brought up by Yahwe would be more like the kind of person God intended us to be than any kid brought up by you.

Ofc it could turn out that the God you worship is real and does get a kick out of the masses of mindless drones that follow him but as someone else said that’s one petty and vein God and I’m not sure such a being deserves to be worshipped or respected

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Wakey you don't seem to understant God at all. God wants you to be everything HE has called you to be. He did give you a mind to question things and figure things out. Why would God not want you to use your brain?

Seriously I did not just walk into a church, get hit with a cattle prod, find myself tied up to a chair, and forced to listen to Gospel music until I converted. It was nothing like that at all. I made the choice. I made the decision. And yes there are days when I have my doubts. I rethink everything that led me to believe and yet over the past 2 years since I became a believer I still believe.

God still amazes me. I was playing PA last night and I wanted to covert op a planet attacking my galaxy and God said not to do it. I thought why not and did it. The covert op failed. Why would he even bother to assist me with a war game? Not sure on that one but I need to learn to listen to him cause he is right every time.

By the way I am already a parent with 2 children of my own and 3 in total in my household.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Ignoring the utter idiocy of of the comment completely, God spoke to you and you ignored him?

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Hahaha you're going to burn in hell.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I would argue that if there is a god and he is ‘good’ as Christians claim then in fact I understand him more than any of you bible bashers. A good god after all isn’t a vein, judgmental, megalomaniac and he certainly wouldn’t be happy with the people acting in a bigoted, close minded manner in his name

Those of us who value the gifts we have (be them god given or simply a case of science/nature) and try and use them to their full potential to try and better ourselves while living in a manner that is as helpful, good and kind to those around us as possible is the exact kind of person

As for your comment about him helping you at PA, are you sure you don’t belong in a mental institute. Humans are self aware and know what’s right and wrong, this isn’t anything to do with god speaking to you but a combination of our make up of our brain and our society conditioning us. Covert ops is a tactic which is a little ‘sneaky’ and as such you found yourself questioning yourself as to its legitimise of use. After all do you really think a god has time to help you play PA while he doesn’t have time to sort out less insignificant problems affecting the world? If you really do think he has time to talk to you either need to check into a mental institute or have a bit of an ego check as you’re not that important

And you last sentence really isn’t relevant; it doesn’t matter if you have kid’s or not it was a hypothetical situation in response to you questioning Yahew ability to bring up a kid well. A lot of people in this world have kids, a large amount of them bring them up in a manner which doesn’t leave them being well rounded individuals so having kids is hardly a good measure of your parenting ability

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

So, to be clear... GOD spoke to you last night, I assume you have a bush in your room that caught fire or some such. There was no ambiguity in your statement, no question as to wheither it might have been the TV on downstairs, or your fillings picking up KZMB (All Zombie Radio!!), or one of your kids squalling from the next room, you are convinced GOD spoke to you.


Lets call that: Evidence of lunacy #1, shall we?


So when GOD spoke to you, what did he speak to you about? Was it telling you to bet on 42 on roulette? Was he telling you to be more humble and devout? Was he telling you to give your earthly posessions to Charity and join a monestary? Was he asking you to plant a pipe bomb in an abortion clinic? was he sking you to lead your people to freedom across the desert?

No. GOD spoke to you, and he told you to not launch a 'special ops' attack on planet in the online computer game Planetarion. So sayeth the Lord.

Lets call that: Evidence of lunacy #2 shall we?


So, having had GOD speak to you (no ambiguity pparently, it was GOD), and having decided that the most valuable way to spend his time on earth was not to heal the sick, clothe the homeless or feed the hungry, but to gibe you advice on how to make an attack in a petty online computer game, you then chose to IGNORE the will of God.

Let's call that Evidence of lunacy #3, shall we?


I dated a psychiatrist for a couple years back in the day, and let me tell you something. If someone comes to the hospital stating that God spoke to them, they do not hold a consultation to determine if God actually might be speaking to the person, they isntantly categorise them as delusional. And you know what? They are correct.


Belief cn be a wonderful thing I imagine. It can help you through incredibly difficult times if you are the kind of person who is not strong enough to get through them without a crutch. It can help you be a good person, as long as you only obey some of the 'rules' and ignore the evil ones. It can promote people giving to charity, and help others in some (though sadly too few) cases.


But coming on here and saying GOD gave you advice on playing Planetarion, and you ignored it? That makes you an utter simpleton. Sorry.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

At first I thought you were a bit of a cock to be frank, but now, after reading that, you're my favourite. internet. person. ever. I don't know what your planetarion name is, but I suggest: The Almightly Power of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

Woah there. Has he done this to others? Is there some kind of list, if not, can he make one? Please Trevler, please.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I am not familiar with UK law, and was under the impression that they did not allow homosexual couples to legally adopt children(if I am wrong, apologies). Option 3 is extreme at best... and I'm still not fully convinced that you didn't just pull this one out of your butt for argument sake.

It's a horrifying concept honestly. Change comes within, but only to a certain point. Sexual orientation cannot be changed, and should not be forced to be change. You can't force yourself to desire a guy's anatomy, and neither can I.

Who are you to say what makes a good parent? I could argue that your undoubted brainwashing of your kids early on with religion makes you almost as bad as hitler's youth program way back when, but I won't. Yahwe I think would make his kids learn somewhat harshly to think for themselves, as opposed to you who will give them no choice in their beliefs whatsoever.

The world is black and white? Maybe in a few cases. There are many others which aren't. Abortion due to rape? Capital punishment for saddam hussein? Stealing from a thief, etc. If you can't see that there are grey areas... well, how exactly would you tell a rape victim that she couldn't have the kid inside her removed? The only people who don't see grey areas are the ones devoid of a good portion of their humanity.

Yes, kids need a set of boundaries early on, but not to the point where they cannot develop either. I lived under a strict rock for the first fair years of my life... and guess what: I have problems socializing decently at parties, I tend to not be able to mingle well with random people I don't know... the list goes on in that department. Why? because I had strict restrictions placed on me all the way till 17. Do your kids a favor and allow them at least some shred of decision-making for themselves some day.

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 

I never said that there were not any grey areas. In fact the grey seems to me to be the majority of the time. What I am saying is that in some areas kids need firm boundaries. Here is an example:

Kid says to parent: "Can I pee on the floor?"

1. Parent with strong boundaries replies: "NO!, you CANNOT PEE on the FLOOR."

2. Parent encouraging decision making skills: "Do you think the floor is the appropriate place for your pee to go?"

Result of #1: Kid knows that peeing on the floor is not correct.

Result of #2: Kid unsure about where the pee should go.

If kids think that something is only bad some of the time they may also generalize other things as well.

Don't be a victim. Don't blame your parents for every flaw you think you have. The only thing keeping you from doing what you want is you. It's all smoke and mirrors to start blaming anything other than ourselves for why we are not what we want to be.