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This country seems intractable and my country seems unwilling to do what's necessary to ease the tensions. I think the solution is for Europe to become openly hostile with their relationship with Israel. Not just diplomatic wussy bullshit sanctions and discussions about having discussions etc, but tough talk and maybe some military implied threats. I am always against war, but sometimes I think it's the only way Americans respond to anything. Seriously it would be a wake up call to Americans if they were forced to choose between London, Paris, Berlin and Tel Aviv/Jerusalem (or whatever their capital is).
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imho its 6 and 2 3's with the whole middle east situation. Palestine are not completely inocent in this and sometimes i feel they like to shoot themselves in the foot and dont think about the consequences of their actions before they undertake them.
although iam pleased that the palestinians are finally targetting military personell as opposed to bombing inocent defenceless people |
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Explain to me what other course of action your average palestinian has other than "terrorist" activities?
Israel is an immature state that has proven consistently not only that it cannot be trusted, but that it is almost certain to reneg on all agreements, past, present, and future. While i certainly hold no love for Arabs or Islam, i have even less for Israel. |
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Israel need a muscle flexing exercise every now on then, completely surrounded by hostile states, attacked regularly by an almost invisible enemy, paranoia creeps in and at the first sign of trouble all hell breaks lose.
Whatever Israels motives for the attacks, one thing struck me, if a British soldier was kidnapped in similar circumstances(impossible i know!) we would have sent an envoy or two, a few emotive speaches by Tony B would be made and not a great deal would be done. For one soldier however, Israel are moving heaven and earth to get him back. I can imagine Israeli's feeling a huge sense of national pride at the moment ________ Vaporizer Review |
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I don't really have any sympathy for either party, but there doesn't seem to be much wrong with what Israel are doing about this issue...
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When a group has an avowed purpose to destroy your country (as Hammas does) and regularly attempts to do so, it is not surprising when retaliation bursts forth.
It is like Tocatta and Fugue (obviously a group from the name) who has vowed to bring down English civilisation as we know it. The govenment has punished him by giving him a job. |
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a/ Too weak to stand up to the American backed Israel b/ Too indebted to agreements with America re protection for oil ... to back up Palestine. If indeed, they wanted to. And great, superb. More nationalism! That'll solve the problem! Quote:
For what? The capture of one soldier? Last i checked the palestinians were all captured, roadblocked in by their israeli oppressors. |
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They are angry young men.
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when the British government stopped trying to hammer the Irish into the dirt, the IRA lost support. When the British government stopped paying brutal thugs to put Republicans in hospital and intimidate their families, bombs stopped going off in British towns.
Just sayin'. |
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Until either side backs down and starts being sensible, neither will be getting any 'support' from me. |
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We seem to have ignored and belittled their democratic elections. They have no means of "state "military resistance. They dont have any organised external funding or diaspora. Terrorism is pretty much the only means available to them to let the world know they still have a cause |
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The various involved parties right now aren't going to do shit other than what they have been doing. It's pretty simple I think. Isreal is in the wrong and a big bully. Palestinians are in the right but they attack civilians. The Palestinians could stop the bombings, but if they did Israel would disregard them anyways. Israel obviously doesn't give a damn about Palestinians, and nobody would be even talking about them if they hadn't resorted to terrorism. Israel is the main aggressor in my opinion, and they're not going to stop on their own and the US isn't going to stop them, so somebody has to. Here's Europe sitting on the fence not doing shit about anything. It's definitely not the Europe it was 100 years ago. Instead of being part of the international community it seems like Europe only cares about business and social issues within its geographical borders, sending token troops whenever something is happening on the international scale.
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Anyone remember how the germans acted when Heydrich got assasinated? |
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What exactly does bombing a power station and 3 bridges have to do with getting this soldier back?
Oooo controversial:- They probably saw it as good PR losing this soldier, now they can rally nationalistic sentiment and rush into Palestine on this false pretence. http ://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5124872.stm |
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Israel have the military superiority, they should back down first. Threatening them with military action would lead to a major outcry of antisemitism, and probably not lessen their already insane paranoia. Before resorting to force, perhaps try trade embargoes?
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If the palestianians had done what you accuse them off, resorting to violence as a first resort, then they would have actually killed the jewish settlers as they arrived (and we are speaking before 1948 here). (Sadly, they were to nice to do that) |
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The Israelis don't negotiate for the release of their capture soldiers and they will mount rescue operations. The Palestinians know this perfectly well. |
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They still use it as a weapon against organisations/countries that criticise them. Last I remember at the moment was Sweden |
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When Palestians take an Israeli soldier, it's called kidnapping. When Israeli's take a Palestian, it's called an arrest. Yet they're both the same thing really.
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If, as could (but perhaps shouldn't , maybe you could clarify if I'm misunderstanding...) be implied from your reply, the (or at least 'a significant') cause of today's violence really is due to what happened over 60 years ago, then maybe it's time to 'forgive and forget', and see what happens- it might work, who knows? If they want to carry on, as Deffeh says, in an attempt to keep people aware of what's going on, that's their prerogative, but no matter how much people like you decide to insult my intelligence, it's not going to make me feel sorry for them. Quote:
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Well done Israel for killing Corporal Gilad Shalit.
"Palestinian ruling party Hamas has condemned attacks on the infrastructure and called for a prisoner exchange - which Israel has rejected." So what with the option of negotiation gone if i was one of the militants i'd kill Shalit, dump him in a public place and tell Israel to go **** themselves. If Israel continue to advance into the West Bank it then becomes obvious that they're seizing more land (again), land they've just "given back", because you can't rescue a dead person and info gathering is best done with spies not a whole bunch of tanks. Anyways ... |
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Well, because Israel is the country with an army, that spends alot of its time playing an occupying force... and because it might, just might, restore some goodwill towards them from the international community.
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"Edit: (General Question)": Also unless I am being dense there seems to be some certainty in a lot of peoples minds that they think the Palestinian government orchestrated and/or knew/carried out this attack themselves. Can you honestly hold an entire country to account for the actions of a small group(s) within that country? It all just seems very disporportionate. |
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You haven't answered why. Perhaps define what you mean by 'should'? As in 'morally', or 'it would be in its best interests to'? |
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Oh yes, I totally agree with you. The palestians are awefully violent, arent they. Why in gods name are they trying to attack their occupiers?* I mean, arent they happy with living in prisions, refugee camps and beeing treated like untermensch? People with brown skin are so demanding these days. I mean, Israel even allows them to live in their litte bantustans**, to elect goverments (and then we pretend we care about it ho ho ho) and to raise trial everytime they grab their land, kill someone in their family or occupy their houses. *Just as the french during WWII, de Gaulle was really a bad man. *Since you are probably not aware of the term, try to google for it or look at wikipedia. Hint: South Africa under apartheid. |
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'the people on the buses aren't the Israeli government'. 'we'd be belittling their democratic process if we didn't believe that the government were acting on behalf of the people' etc. |
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BTW SYMM that was me who neg-repped you (i forgot to sign it)
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You'd have to be very, very stupid to think this is a conflict with equal culpability, and completely insane to think the Palestinians are more at fault than the Israelis. |
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I'm simply saying that as long as there is violence, I won't support them. That doesn't mean I support anything else instead. The digs at some supposed lack of intelligence/education are getting tedious, how about you stop and try reading what I'm writing? |
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the initial 'proposition' was that europe should oppose Israel because america can not.
opposing israel would be easy. we can not oppose america. |
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:rolleyes:
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Why can't Americans oppose "America"? - no offence but saying "oi Europe watcha gonna do aboud it?" sounds like a cop out. Americans elected their Goverment, whom in turn decide foreign policy. Its called democracy. |
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English. Is. 'To be'. Present Tense. Quote:
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Clicking 'Submit' doesn't count in my book... |
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SYMM, you are making a very bad argument here. You are saying you can't ignore the Palestinians because of what they are doing, but as soon as people explain that in context what they are doing is, while not justifiable, not something they can be blamed for, you clamp your hands over your ears and resort to bizarre arguments with a taint of circular logic.
Do stop. |
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I'll concede that 'be held accountable for' is perhaps better terminology.
(and so 'yes') |
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