Zik Fix
 

The issue of other races "defending" against Ziks as a form of attack is pretty lame. I would suggest if this isn't going to be fixed for the next round. Remove the restrictions on attacking gal and ally mates. At least that way the attacked planet could run the same ship type "defending" them and allow a galaxy or ally mate to attack against that ship type alone. That would likely bring an end to this practice. I know that will cause political problems and potential farming, but surely there are better solutions for those issues, if nothing more than being dealt with ingame.

Re: Zik Fix
 

It's called 'Red Defence' if I am not mistaken.

From what I know it will be fixed for next round, stats wise.

Re: Zik Fix
 

Well, cutlass have init 2 which means they subvert the deffing fi before they can be fired out by other fi killers, and subverted ships can't be killed.

Re: Zik Fix
 

fixing this stat wise is going to be interesting. good luck

-mist

Re: Zik Fix
 

Thanks Blixx - lets keep our fingers crossed

Re: Zik Fix
 

It wasn't that much of a problem in rnd 11 so it should be possible i.m.o.

Re: Zik Fix
 

that's because there was so few "good" ziks.
I certainly hope pateam's plan isn't to make zik so shit no one chooses them :\ (not that they were shit r11)

Re: Zik Fix
 

It's also because the trick with subverting your own attacking ships was impossible if you had terran defenders against you (attacking ships always subbed terran defenders that killed their own red def). I think it was designed that way (note that this is a compliment to Syn_Sid!)

Re: Zik Fix
 

forest keeps telling me how it was abusable, but the lack of ziks in 1up meant they didn't want to do it and show everone else how it was done...

-mist

Re: Zik Fix
 

Indeed

Re: Zik Fix
 

Actually --

I saw it used twice against my alliance in r-12 -- It was very minor as abuses go.

I think if PA-crew makes it so subverted ships can be killed as they had planned to do, then that would pretty much end that particular abusable loophole.

But I'm sure someone would find another...

Cheers'

Re: Zik Fix
 

I don't think its that big a problem, it'll never be used on a major scale by alliances because it uses up two fleets on a planet, instead of one.

Re: Zik Fix
 

[quote=Nonentity]I don't think its that big a problem, it'll never be used on a major scale by alliances because it uses up two fleets on a planet, instead of one.[/QUOTE

As a DC I saw it plenty of times, and had it coming at my planet no less than 4 times. From the like of 1up and ND. So large alliances do use it. And it doesn't take seeing too many times before you get pretty frustrated either. It limits your defensive options enourmously.

Re: Zik Fix
 

how do u think evil_n00b got his 199k XP? ...... exactly! by those 'green attackers'
needs to be fixed for next rnd imo...

Re: Zik Fix
 

so like I said --

all PA crew has to do is make subverted ships able to be killed in combat. Thats what they were planning anyway.

If the player is sending the defending ships to be deliberatly subverted - then the true planetary defenders can then kill his/her ships by defending against those classes.


ie:

Enemy a sends mauraders on attack:
Enemy b sends Pirates/Galleons on def
Defending Player has defense against incomming BS/CR

currently this occurs:

Pirates subvert mauraders (making them so they cannot be killed)
Mauraders subvert Pirates and Galleons (they too cannot be killed)
Galleons bombard planetary structures


If subverted ships can be killed:

Pirates subvert Mauraders
Mauraders subvert Pirates and Galleons
Other unsubverted ships get to shoot and kill both classes

PA-Crew said they were trying to make it so subverted ships die in combat like ordinary ships == I think this simple change would pretty much make the green fleet attack tactic obsolete.

=- Remby -=

Re: Zik Fix
 

the combat engine isn't going to be rewritten for r13, partiuclarly with spinner ill. as such, the way subverting works wouldn't change.

-mist

Re: Zik Fix
 

i did the same aswell only had 90-100k xp tho :( . i used it on every attack and sending mass vsha stops it, trust me

Re: Zik Fix
 

there are only so many vsha in the world...

Re: Zik Fix
 

an other way of fix'ing this little problem is to be able to make your incomming greens red... (just a little cute button...)

Re: Zik Fix
 

ND (Sprit and Squid, I just worked on the combos ^^ ) discovered it quite early in the round, and started using it, but mainly for retals. The stats weren't as conducive to this though (I usually attacked with clipper/CR and defended with cutters against xans for instance, but nothing as hideously effective as red deffing xan FI), and comparitively few people managed to work it out quickly. However, by Round 12, more people knew about it, and it was more useful :/

Evil n00b was sending 50k or so cutlass. That's 350k FI before vsh starts to shoot. Which is possible, but was pretty pointless for me as very few in ND actually did build vsh. Aside from red def and the occasional times they're useful in decent numbers in this scenario, they're one of the worst R12 ships IMO (Not quite as bad as the defender though :p ). Several NDers build a small number to send on defence against other xans (vsh/sent to kill attacking fi/sent), but that was it.

Re: Zik Fix
 

this would require a coder who's not in hospital

-mist

Re: Zik Fix
 

plus players that don't think farming is 1337.

Re: Zik Fix
 

how would this affect farming?

i think it's a good (interim) solution, if it could be done.

-mist

Re: Zik Fix
 

yes, but that would mean that you are changing the orders of someone elses fleet?! that does not seem correct

Re: Zik Fix
 

not really - any fleet in pa is sent to fight, this is in essence just deciding that your fleets and your loyal defence fleets treat it as hostile which is a more realistic combat model really.

Re: Zik Fix
 

but would the ziks fleet still be defending? therfore if yes then subverting will still happen (its int is lower) and if no then you have changed the order surly?

Re: Zik Fix
 

Would force HC to pay better attention to internal affairs too. I can imagine someone getting ticked off and deciding to leave their ally for another. Before announcing that they are leaving have their new ally send an attack, get old ally def and switch half the old allys def to attack and watch them kill each other. Would be interesting.

Re: Zik Fix
 

Well, he didn't get the xp from killing structures, as killing ships and structure is in no way related to xp; I'm not sure it ever has been.
The major way to gain xp is through capping roids, with slight benefits from scanning (and I think covert ops, not 100% sure). Of course, the wave xp benefits at least got nerfed after lots of abuse a couple of rounds back...

Re: Zik Fix
 

It's very easy to sneak in an attack fleet without the galaxy defending because they either see only defence or (a little less obvious) an attacker that is covered by defence.

Re: Zik Fix
 

why defending? the case everyone is talking about is a zik fleet ATTACKING and another fleet defending, but getting subbed. the point is that those subbed ships don't get shot at, this must be changed.

you are right tho that changing them from green to red not only changes the way other ships act with respect to that fleet, but also the way that fleet itself acts. so actually you'd need to make them red only for the defenders. the fleet itself should still defend as it was ordered, and attackers should still fire at it. that seems like the most logical behaviour as well as the most devastating for the (green) attacker :D

Re: Zik Fix
 

So you are assuming that chaniging its goal from defence to attack that other ships will do the same?

senario
Zik attking
Ter defending (ally of the zik)
Xan is the planet

even in the terran becomes enemy to the xan, its also still an enemy for the zik as you are only changing how the xan reacts.

This would mean that the xan can take out the Ter, BUT the Zik being superior in speed sub the Ter... this leaves you with the same problem you started with!

Only if you make the Ters overall mission attack (changing the order) will the zik respond differently

This will not work. Simply the only way to stop this kind of trick is to remove the invincibility of subbed ships, but then people will start to loose their own ships in more than one way.
that is why subbing (imo) is too good. only a cat can counter it

Re: Zik Fix
 

Just a thought I got, how about making subbed shipsfire after all the others? Now, this would stop the zik co/xan pulsars vs xans (as we all know and love from this round. Beetles are cute), as the pulsars would fire too late, and it would also affect the other typical scenarios.

If you make them fire before the pods, then it would still be possible to lend red def to allies (VGN "defended" MISTU a few times with bombers, I seem to recall).

Just a thought, haven't really thought it through, but it seems like a solution - allthough I expect someone to find new flaws with this that wasn't available before :P

As for alliances with high use of hostile defence: SiN is nr 1 here in my book (unless my intel is wrong, but I don't think it is). Not that others didn't, but SiN was very annoying as they did it late nights on my shifts :P

Re: Zik Fix
 

No one would be a Zik because Subversion ships would as usefull as tits on a bull.

Re: Zik Fix
 

if the sub ships fire late they become expensive emp that didn't.

this is why fixxing through stats is so difficult

Re: Zik Fix
 

Ok, I think I pharsed myself a bit bad there (or perhaps the idea has some serious flaw I'm just not seeing here).

What I meant, is if the subversion works every bit as we know it now (wait, also change structure killers to work like pods, so they don't fire when subbed), except for making subverted ships fire last. This would, admittedly, make zik a lot more like cathaar, and destroy some of the joy in calcing an attack where you use the target's own fleet against him, or arranging defence for some all-fleeter noob. However, as others have pointed out allready, subversion is a very difficult thing to implement in some working way (some go as far as saying the entire feature should be removed - perhaps now a bad thing, remove the various race "specialities", xan cloakingis allready gone (fleet analysis doesn't count)), but this - as far as I can see - would solve the problems we have had so far. No doubt it opens for new ones, as some or other devious mind will figure out ;-)

Re: Zik Fix
 

i disagree. xan are more cloaked now than they ever were. when they were cloaked old-style (0 ships on overview and gal status), mil scan was available quite soon anyway, so the whole cloaking feature had nearly no effect at all. with the current system, it's impossible to see what ships they sent through the entire round, which IS effective (/me remembers with joy the several occasions of dreadnought ingal def against his bomber/bolt/sabre fleet)

Re: Zik Fix
 

Untrue. I don't recall which round it was, but at a certain point you couldn't see the orders of the fleets in a milscan. So by having the same amouth of pods in fleet 1 and fleet 2 (old style) you could have 1500 ships incoming, which could be 1500 pods OR 1500 pods + immense fleet. That was even more powerfull than the lack of fleetscan in PaX on xan, since you then see at least the actual number of ships incoming.

back on topic:
With pure statschanges this problem of red defence is about impossible to solve. I agree with what's been said before. Making subbed ships fire last makes it useless, I also agree that subbed ships dieing could be the solution, without removing the unique quality of zik (which I don't like btw, bring back stealing ;) )

Re: Zik Fix
 

on the issue of "hostile defence" and subbed ships.

would it not be feasable for subbed ships to take on the characteristics of the ship type that subbed them ?

For example, a Buccaneer subverting sentinels would make them target the same class as the Bucaneer (CO) not as subverted ships but as "normal" instead of aiming at their tertiary target.

This would mean that any Fi defence would not be affected by the subbed sentinels, and if it were Vsh defending they would have the chance to shoot at the CO pods.

Re: Zik Fix
 

wouldn't that just shift the problem, rather than solving it?

-mist

Re: Zik Fix
 

Ok my coding is very weak so i'm not sure how this would work.

the idea of red / green switching... why not have it so that you can change from "Freindly" (green) to "fake defence" which is say blue or summut

a green fleet when subbed is indestructable...
a blue fleet is not... its as if you anticipate them being hostile.

so it doesnt change any orders except your own.
am i right in assuming you would not fire on subbed ships because you don't expect them to attack you?
well by making them killable after being subbed then the defender would not bother, and also the real freindlies don't loose ships at their own hands

did that make sense?

Re: Zik Fix
 

maybe, but it would mean that the Bucaneers dont get a free hit (by subversion) at other classes (which is perhaps the real issue) ?

or maybe I am talking out the back of my head again ?

Re: Zik Fix
 

I still cant help thinking that its not that zik is too strong, but that the other races are too weak.

Tweak zik a little, and give other races decent stats, and all is sorted.

BTW off-topic, everyone seems to of missed the point that catheers were way more powerful than zik this round.

Re: Zik Fix
 

fizzyxl: the problem is that it's impossible to shoot at ships once they're subbed. if it wasn't this whole probably wouldn't be.

Re: Zik Fix
 

I agree Cath' were very strong, but most players can stand losing roids, it's the subversion issue and Red Defence that caused problems, in particular the Marauder/Galleon problem.

Nothing worse than watching your planet reduced to a hulk, while having Zero defence options, roids are easy to replace structures can take weeks.

Re: Zik Fix
 

So change the class of structure killers to there own class, and problem is solved.

Re: Zik Fix
 

You would still need a ship(s) (or PDS <spit>) that fired specifically at Structure killers, and with four races would that be 4 different classes of structure killers, or do all Structure killer come under the same class?

(I always hated PDS) :D

Re: Zik Fix
 

Or rather change how structure killers work in battle, so they function the same way as pods - which will do nothing when subbed.

Re: Zik Fix
 

Just include a ship that fires at structutre killers, but make it weaker than the others so ppl dont just buld loads and make structure killers useless

Re: Zik Fix
 

That would work also.

Re: Zik Fix
 

I got my 200k xp by roiding targets 2x my value. Those roids gives nice xp :D
the only reasonable def against zik co attack with a xan flak was enought beetles to emp all ships.
Its good to fix this, althought it wont change the fact that there will be other things that can be used next round :)
also when something is "fixed" it usually means 2 new exploits is avaible