[politics] new tory logo
 

I don't see what the new logo (a frickin tree) is trying to represent. Well, green comes to mind but I'd never describe any party* as that.

At least the torch was very iconic, although perhaps too iconic of a bygone era. Still, I doubt if the tree will remain nearly as long.

As an aside, can anyone remember what they had before the torch?

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david cameron is so transparent it hurts

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Maybe David Cameron used a green "oversized" pen to draw the tree.

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a black cross with the arms bent at right angles in a clockwise direction, on a white circle, on a red background.

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or churchill

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the little puppet dog?

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Littel CGI nodding dog aculy milo not a puppit dog.If thats what Yahwe ment.

neptis

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lolz




No.

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/to...nd_green_.html
(and he didn't put it on his blog, the bastard)

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I hope this is all serious. I really do.

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icons are a form of subliminal message -


a tree is a symbol of safety, strength and shelter.
its a green tree so its full of life.
its done in a basic crayon/childlike way symbolising innocence and youth.
its also a symbol of lengevity.

they paid someone alot of money to subconciously create the right atmosphere in one symbol without the viewer knowing what it was doing.

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youth. innocence. norman tebbit. vitality. life





wait hold on

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*shrug* I like it.

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i think the look fits the new tory party.

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focus-grouped and misleading?

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to use the word misleading implies that there is some secret or hidden agenda.

the tory party has changed. it has changed because it needs to in order to get elected. it wants to get elected. so it has come up with new policies and ideas that people will vote for.

it's not a ****ing conspiracy

it's democracy.

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Elements of the Labour party rebranded as New Labour in order to get elected. That worked well for them.

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they've not changed the webby yet though.

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the tories have a young, charismatic leader. aside from whom they are the same ragtag band of bigots, fools, old boys, fascists and ill-intentioned geriatrics they've been for forty years. Don't let the crumbling edifice of Blairism fool you into thinking the Conservatives are somehow 'nicer' than Labour, don't mistake the drawing of a tree for the turning over of a new leaf. The Tories will revert to the sleazy, pocket-lining, hateful old ****s that tore the country apart in the 80s the moment they get a chance. Cameron is leader now, but pause for but a moment and remember who he replaced. The Parliamentary Conservative party, and the polls advantage of the Tories, found their groundwork in Michael 'Section 28 and Immigration Quotas' Howard. That does not to me sound like a friendly party.

Also, Tebbit! I mean, Norman ****ing Tebbit! I know he doesn't like Cameron, but how the juggling christ can you mistake a party which permitted that ****er a job for a nice group of people?

It isn't a conspiracy, it's just barefaced lies and the Great British Public are lining up to get stung by it.

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Better the devil you know...

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what emotive rubbish.

'tore the country apart' indeed.

you really do need to stop getting so excited.

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No you're just talking about a number of their core supporters, who vote conservative habitually and who might vote UK independence/BNP. The individuals in control of the conservatives seem to a different breed to this bunch. These people are no less moronic than the maniacs who believe in die hard socialism and would end up wrecking our economy who have habitually voted Labour.

I don't think anyone does, Cameron is pretty similar to Blair in many ways, with slight variations in policy. The difference is that for now, Cameron has the backing of his party. Essentially the top nobs at conservative HQ have identified the environment as their key policy and for the 21st century, it looks like it's probably going to be. Hardly a new leaf, but from their point of view - common sense considering how backwards the torch made them look.

Look at the UK in 1980, and then in 1990 -the difference is pretty huge. I don't think there's been a decade with more rapid progress in the UK. In the 1990's we developed some ability to handle it and we had what was pretty much a golden age in the late 90's. Every government should be judged on what it delivers as a whole and the Conservatives pretty much fixed their own **** ups in the late 80's and Major divided his party and ruined his chances of getting elected because of it, handing Blair a pretty good hand to deal with.

I agree that the thought of a party with Howard in charge is a scary one, but the fact is that the Conservatives opted for a 'moderniser' in Cameron, who is pretty much their own version of Blair (although Blair seems to be a better politician), which is just as frightening.

I don't see how a party where Norman Tebbit feels marginalised because he thinks its not right wing enough is a bad thing.

One might have said the same thing when Blair gained control of New Labour. The fact is Labour are in decline, the Conservatives want to be in government and are rethinking their policies and rebranding their identity to do so. Political parties listening to the people, who would have thought? While the tories won't keep all their promises, what do you suggest, the tories remaining unelectable and labour as it is stays in government?

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i personally do not like it. As i do not like politics in full. But sine when have my points ever been listened to (do not ancer it was rhetorical)

Yahwe will mind

neptis

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The Tory Party has changed on the outside, but it goes no deeper than that. What is worrying is that what is currently referred to as democracy in Britain basically means harnessing popular support on one or two central issues to get power. In truth, people in Britain don't have their say on anything more than a few issues which, more often than not, are chosen by the media with certain interests at heart. This is completely reflected by Cameron's approach to making the Conservatives electable. I think people who are aware of what a considerable portion of Tory MPs are like, in terms of their views and general characters, are concerned that, whilst it is obvious that the policy changes now are unlikely to have much substance under a Tory government, people are still believing that the Conservatives are a 'changed party'. There is no doubt that the policy changes were a drive to win votes rather than a realisation that the Tory policy had been at best philosophically misled over the previous two decades.

I'd compare it to Nestle releasing a fair trade range - it's good that the bastards are having to compromise in order to keep their profits but it makes me sick that they're acting under the pretence that they agree with the ethical arguments in order to earn more. In the wider scheme of things, however, I'd say overall it's a good thing.

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the conservative mp's i have met have been very nice people who have the views that one would look for in an mp for a counrtyside constituency.

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and this is a bad thing because...

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to be honest, i just want this ****ing shit labour party out. Until those backbench MP's get some ****ing backbone and don't vote for or abstain on important issues I'm going to consider them worse than conservatives.

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because democracy used to mean so much more?

:)

bless you

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I'm not sure that's ever going to happen. If the Conservatives win the next election (or the one after that) all it will probably show is the party that wins elections is the one that papers over any differences and presens the most competent leadership (not necessarily the one with the superior ideals). I'd expect more bland comfority out of the Labour Party if they lost the next election, not less.

Of course, it could go the other way and the whole thing could fall apart but I wouldn't be overly hopeful.

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As long as it isnt Maggie

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the way i see it all polititians are as bad as each other...yes the tories were a tad on the sleazy side when they were last in power..but what about labour this time?
Keith Vas and his passport scandal
Blair and his holidays/iraq/etc
Clarke and his 'lost' immigrants
Prescott and his....**** it too many to list

thats just a few that have gone off since '97

in the end change is always a good thing...the conservatives may not be all brilliant atm...but they are far a better option than a stagnating labour government

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Clearly this isn't true (even in the particular context of changing governments).

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maybe i should clarify...

when labour first came in they were vigourous and made some good changes...as time went on however they got complacent and their ruling stagnated.
when the government changes the new leading party are full of life and energy..which in my eyes is a good thing...but when things start to stagnate and people in power get complacent then change is definitely needed

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Unless the new policies are shit to begin with.

Change for the sake of it (especially when there is nothing better) is most definatly a bad thing.

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It depends. You're referring to democracy on the broad basis that, no matter how many policies are unknown to a large percentage of the population, no matter how few people vote, no matter how concentrated power is, no matter how big a part propaganda and media manipulation has to play, as long as there is technically an opportunity, no matter how difficult, for the people to speak out and remove people from power then it can be called a democracy. This seems to be an odd definition in my eyes, or at least not very useful. Perhaps it's how some people are fooled into considering the E.U. a democratic institution.

I find it worrying that whilst people either don't care enough to vote or are still buying the propaganda being thrown at them, our leading politicians are still justifying wars by claiming they're 'fighting for democracy'. If that were so then they'd start at home.

I'm not saying I think there has been an example of 'full democracy' but I think that's no reason to accept being marginalized or practically disenfranchised. I think a reasonable aim would be to have a more educated society with greater participation in the decision making process by as many citizens as possible - politicians will not realise this whilst they themselves are causing problems. Should we just shrug and say "that's democracy", or actually voice concerns about British politicians using devious tactics to gain power?

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what is it about all you young people and conspiracies these days?

'devious tactics' indeed

the people who don't vote have chosen not to vote. It's not as though they were compelled not to or denied the right in the first place ...

do please stop using disingenupus and emotive words such as 'propaganda', 'manipulation' and 'disenfranchised'. Lest you be accused of the illusory falsehoods you are randomly spewing at others.

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Actually, i quite liked the lion looking conservative symbol from Furbeh's link (here) which was submitted by 'ash'. I'm not a massive fan of trees for logos, but i suppose at least the pommy parties actually do put a tiny bit of effort towards them. In australia they are just a box with funny stripes on the bottom (for the australian labor party), and the liberals (conservatives) have an L with a flag in it. Not very inspiring.

:\

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HEH
I'm sorry Yahwe if you don't like considering that when a political party is trying to persuade you to adopt their view, it's propaganda. Sorry if you do not realise that by using means of presenting propaganda that hide elements of the truth, that is manipulation. Sorry if you did not know that, when someone hasn't the opportunity to voice an opinion, or exert influence over people who make huge decisions affecting their lives, that is disenfranchisement (to deny a justified privelage or right, if you actualy didn't know - bearing in mind I actualy said 'practically disenfranchised' which is highlighting the point that although we have the formal right to vote, in practice it often doesn't amount to much more than having no right whatsoever).

Did I suggest that it was a conspiracy? Not at all; it's perfectly visible for all to see. Noone tries to hide the fact that politics is all about PR, everyone knows it and it's probably why voter turnout is so low, but that doesn't matter as long as we're democratic right?. All I was saying is it's quite sad that our concept of democracy is so pitifully weak and that if we consider that this is as close to democracy as is advisable for our society at this moment in time, then we should stop acting under the pretence that democracy == the epitomy of good ethics and healthy society, and accept that what we have has as much in common with what would be called oligarchy or aristocracy, i.e. the government of most by a few. I actualy believe we aren't ready to make a noticeable leap towards democracy, but I also believe it wouldn't be a bad thing to prepare ourselves for and, whilst we're at it, we can stop telling all the other countries (who don't want to give us oil) to instantly become democratic or risk being set back 20 years for their 'evil ways'. Can you not see the paradox in saying "we believe it is right that everyone have their equal say in how decisions are made, and if any nation weaker than us doesn't agree we'll pummel them into the ground"?

To summarise: let us stop using 'democracy' as the holy grail and be honest to ourselves about what we ACTUALLY have in place and what is realistic and advisable. I'm saying it would be nice for people to be more involved in the decisions that change their lives, and that as it currently stands there's too much deception involved - you're saying "that's democracy so accept it".

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1) I don't believe that you're sorry at all; though you have a great deal to apologise to yourself for.
2) Your definition of propaganda is factually untrue and silly. Changing your parties policies to what the people want is not propaganda, it's not even persuasion. Expressing a view point is not propaganda.
3) Your definition of disenfranchised doesn't back up your own claim. Every one has the right to vote.
4) You do not seem to know what the words Oligarchy and Aristocracy mean.
5) For a deception to occur there has to be a truth which is being hidden from someone.
6) Your posts read like the popular children's classic: "Mr Hyperactive goes in search of emotive words"

Re: [politics] new tory logo
 

1. For once you're right, I'm not sorry.
2. Give me your definition of propaganda, the one on the online dictionary reads as follows: "information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc."
I have a feeling your definition is something like: "the thing fascists use to brainwash people", in which case - well done for absorbing the propaganda with all the idiocy you could muster.
3. I said, and repeated, 'practically disenfranchised', meaning: although people have an equal vote in theory, in practice some votes count for more than others, some votes can be ignored, some votes aren't cast, a lot of the time it isn't worth casting votes for most of the parties. I'll forgive the fact your understanding doesn't reach A-level politics standard.
4. Ok. Aristocracy
1. a class of persons holding exceptional rank and privileges, esp. the hereditary nobility.
2. a government or state ruled by an aristocracy, elite, or privileged upper class.
3. government by those considered to be the best or most able people in the state.
4. a governing body composed of those considered to be the best or most able people in the state.
5. any class or group considered to be superior, as through education, ability, wealth, or social prestige.
Take your pick.
Oligarchy
1. a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.
2. a state or organization so ruled.
3. the persons or class so ruling.
This is exactly what i meant, although I was under the impression that wealth had something to do with it.

5. Such as, for example, the true incentives and views of the Tory party? Well done Yahwe, you're getting good at stating the obvious here.

I was going to respond to 6 with something equally obnoxious about a sad middle-aged toff who spends all his time on the internet, but instead I'm happy just knowing you're wrong.

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Because of my inestimable kindness I shall buy you a dictionary.

"deliberately spread widely" the mind boggles.

Your anger and your arrogance are not appealing. Your attempts at school boy wit bely a poorer education than a twelve year old should rightly claim.

You are upset because I have undermined your over enthusiastic polemic.

I do not share your need to clash antlers.

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hehehe, this was a reasonably mature discussion before you decided to lower the tone, thus why I got irritated. I'm not upset, but it did annoy me that you had nothing rational to reply with so you decided to resort to slander and unfounded criticism. Your funny little trolling there has given me a brighter perspective on your attitude though. I'd like to apologise to people if I've appeared arrogant, I assure everyone I was just trying (to no avail) to match Yahwe's vanity.



Oh, and if you had no need to 'clash antlers', you wouldn't have replied... 'Bless'.

edit: and I'm looking forward to receiving what you've obviously been using as a dictionary. Should make an interesting read. (By the way, the bad grammar was pasted from the online dictionary.)

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Words you need to look up:

Propaganda
Disenfranchised
Brighter

You may consider me dim. I consider you far worse. But at least I'm succinct.

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oh these Oxford students/graduates, will they never learn that you can't measure penis size over the Internet :(

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bagsy the last word :p

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There is little one can blame on Oxford here.

The world would be a far better place if every single human being spent at least 62 weeks of their life there.

In that time they would learn the power of words. That to misuse a word is the greatest of post-aetheist sins.

That you can not bandy about emotive phrases. You can not say 'propoganda' to describe the expressing of an opinion. You can not say 'disenfranchised' when you mean apathetic. When you realise that it is morally questionable to produce a polemic. That to lack subtlety of language is to undermine the complexity of truth.

Without those 62 weeks. A man's life is as nothing.