My 2 cents about the future
 

Let me just say that I would very much like PA to survive, and since it has been made clear to me it will not find it's way back to my hands, I thought I just had to give me 2 cents about what I would have done, so that others (Lunar?) can consider the same things.

Point 1:
Make the game more mobile-friendly. There is no denying it, people are going more and more mobile. And with the game redesigned towards it, it will stand a greater chance in the market.
First of all, I'm talking about the interface.
Second of all, sell credits through SMS from inside each account, it takes a few minutes to set up.
Third, if you still use email for account-signups, ditch it, and sort authentication / verification through SMS, to make sure signups are easy to do from the phone as well.
And if Jagex and their "demands" are out of the picture, ditch all kinds of needless signup-fields.

The cost for these items is just development-time, and it should not be too much.
All the SMS-stuff can be set up for free.

Provided the game now has a pretty and functional mobile interface, it's time for
Point 2:
The game needs more players.
There are a few ways to do this:
- Go the facebook-route, integrate it with facebook (one-click-signup is a nice bonus) and I'm sure the loyal players will help you spread the jolly word. This should be done regardless of any other marketing-method.
- Purchase ad-views with mobile gaming-sites. This one costs money, and the limit is ofc up to your potential budget. If you need to raise some funds, you could ofc try crowdfunding, although I have recently learnt it's harder than one might think.
- A referral-competition with some prizes is also a good way to go, but you need to consider the costs here, versus the gain, and compare it with doing ads.
- Get active in the facebook-group for the game (I believe Lunar was recently made admin in there), and have other members start recruiting through that door.

Point 3
Further down the line, the combat-engine could do with a small layer of tactics. It doesn't have to be much more than some rock-paper-scissor-logic, a couple of different attack-types to get the ball rolling.

I could go on with some more things related to alliances and the combat-logic, but I think this would be enough to keep you busy for a while. Or at least, consider these things and then reject them. I do wish you the best of luck, of course, and I apologize if I have offended Lunar Lamp in particular with my bold move to try to buy the game again. I did not mean to step on anyones toes, but I see I just might have done so anyway.

I'll back off now :)

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

**** toes, how can you possibly feel like you need to apologise for showing an interest in purchasing a product on the basis that somebody else is also interested in purchasing the same product?

Best of luck to you, Spinner; whatever your venture!

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Some good idea`s there Spinner, hopefully admin will take some of your suggestions up....... oh wise Spinner :D

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Facebook integration would be wise. Player base will go up for sure even if it are only signup and play-a-week-till-i-crash players, some will eventually stick to the game, i am sure. Though i hate playing games on facebook, it even annoys me getting game inventions on facebook...

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

All good ideas Spinner... but then again PA has never lacked good ideas from players/ex-players/ex-owners. What it has lacked ever since you sold it was owners with the will to implement good ideas. Very bizarre if you ask me, but I know Lunar Lamp and if he gets sufficient control from Jagex I'm sure we'll finally see some positive changes to the game. Whether these suggestions will be among them remains to be seen!

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Not that bizarre. Return on investment is the name of the game.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

From what I gather, Lunar is not prepared to make the game mobile friendly/integrate it with Facebook due to security issues.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Thank **** for that.
Leave facebook out of it, quite frankly sick of everything linking to facebook and lets be honest, with the way pa is people aint going to love it on facebook.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

??? I don't see the connection...Not with mobile-friendly and not with One-click-signups...

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

The thing is:
You don't need to make it spam things etc. You just authenticate or let it grab the details required for signup. Then it's completely up to the registering user whether he wants to sign up "normally / manually" or through facebook-authentication.

But through facebook-integration, there are tons or marketing-options and viral effects to make use.

That said, I fully understand some reluctance on the point, due to tracking-issues, loss of privacy etc etc if such things are important.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

<Clouds> surely with some time it can be coded to intergrate with FB
<@Lunar_Lamp> Ignoring the technical aspects, the gameplay aspects of how that would work haven't really been ever confidently worked out.
<@Lunar_Lamp> So, it's something that as a concept seems good, but I haven't seen a good spec for an implementation.
<@Lunar_Lamp> So, it's unlikely to happen for next round.
<@Lunar_Lamp> But, I don't think that I'd be spilling any huge secrets to say that it's something the whole of PA Team is interested in.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

A fluid layout would be the obvious first step and would simply involve someone sitting there and changing the css /html to a column setup (templates for fluid sites that collapse nicely sre readily available).

I reckon some of the pages would be a challenge as they are very data-heavy (e.g. fitting the galaxy list for mobile) but I'm sure it could be workable.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

I've said this for years... but the game needs to break away from IRC. No one wants to use that/set it up that isn't already using it...

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Certainly for any new players that have only switched on to the net in the last 5 years, you will need robust methods of communication in place that don't need external programs! However, you must also tailor for the die-hard players that are entrenched and have history and comfort in the use of IRC.

By coming up with a list of different 'groups' that play the game, you can list down the needs of those groups. Then you can work out how to either link these needs or make compromises so that everyone is happy. It's important not to alienate the core member base (i.e. you amazing guys) that have stayed loyal to the game and are the best people to champion the game during its expansion.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Ive been saying for quite a while that this game needs a mobile app/ui. Having an app on iOS and play store should likely increase player base rather quickly

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

This is going to be one of those threads, I guess. Everyone has an idea that should obviously be the first thing to be implemented. Except.. Well, they're all different ideas.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

FB would be the last thing on my to-do-list.
Since PaX went for hardcoded alliances, you could do a lot with little effort if you just had a mobile App that allowed you to contact other players with a click to send attack/defence request.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

What i had in mind for quite a while was the idea of having an app what makes it easy to react on defence calls. With a wake-up friendly interface where you are able to send defence in a few clicks. Maybe an overview of gal/ally incs where you are able to click on and than you can select what ships you like to send.

The problem i see is that it need some reprogramming/rethinking of what there already is. For example the adjustments to launches, fleet compositions, the ability to select multiple ships on a defence call... and a lot more, but i do think it should be possible.

Another issue is that there are alot of players around who do not want to leave this. Both the nostalgic feeling of irc and the effort some people put into it over the years will make some people sceptical about changes to what became their natural habitat. If there is some big change coming, it should be a worthy substitute for the irc commands most organised allies are using nowadays.

In time, i really think it should be possible. The PA team really should have some discussions with both players being sceptical and optimistic about it. Just give it some priority, maybe reserve some funds for developing, maybe ask a Pound or Euro extra for new developments (if there is enough player-base support).

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

In terms of priorities, although this is important, you wouldn't want to create the app without the game functionality and gameplay being in prime condition or people will uninstall it quickly. I would recommend a round table or 'player council' between (e.g.):

- The People Running PA (i.e. the financial perspective)
- The loyal players who have been playing since round 1 and play hardcore
- The players who have been playing since round 1 but casually
- Someone who has stepped in to play their first round and has experience playing other online games
- Someone who plays for free
- Someone who pays to play

If you could nominate 2 reps for each one of these categories, stick them in an IRC chat over an evening, stick on +m with open invite, and discuss based on a set agenda (e.g.):

Core Gameplay
Level of complexity
The aims of Soloplay / Teamplay / Casualplay / Hardcoreplay
Visuals
Community
Revenue (premium features), Expansion

That would be a great first step and get the ball rolling. At this point, priorities, timelines and costs don't matter. Just get a bucket list of all the possible changes and improvements that each segment of the game would look for.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Agree, a first step has to be made. Although i think it will be more worthwhile to have a private word with a few members of the alliances (HC or founders). I think all of them do have good idea's. Make a list of idea's and then discuss it with the PA staff and focus on that what can be achieved with the current funds and expertise so you can avoid useless discussions on matters that can't even be implemented. Then, in a creators hour, discuss it with the mass. Especially do not reckless implement new stuff, figure out if there is support from the community.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

The current com unit is pretty good.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

maybe good enough to enter #planetarion. true. even some galchannels are working well without p-access. however, the need to register pnick in some cases and the fact that some alliances have their own server other than netgamers makes it difficult for some starters.

but frankly, i don't know what else can be used. i do have an idea, but im not sure how that could be implemented and especially with the mobile part in mind. often, you see galmates coming online but they dont make any effort coming to irc. if you login into PA, you should directly join a chat channel of your galaxy. this shouldnt be in a new tab, but just on the right side or at the bottom. if nothing happens facebook/app wise, this could increase gal activity by randoms and isnt that hard to implement...i hope

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

The only reason anyone needs any of that stuff is because some galaxies and alliances make completely absurd hoops for their new members to jump through to join up with them.

I've said before a shoutbox style thing would be one of the best improvements though.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

We can all make the best suggestions, but at the end of the day nothing will be done, as per usual.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Totally agree.

If there are no big changes, this could help random gals to improve and new or returning players to communicate with those willing to make the best of it.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

At this stage I wouldn't talk at the level of implementing stat change X, adding government Y or tweaking formula Z. It would be a higher level. It's true that these things have been talked about in the past, but doing it in a formal manner is usually all it takes to get the ball rolling. Then the wave can be rode (ridden? O_o)

In any case, the ABSOLUTE first step is to get someone in charge who has the power to make changes and realise the vision. I wouldn't want to help anything if Jagex was still being fed the money.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Its time to let the game die.

With the game having less than 1000 players (809 according to Kia), and "perhaps" only 200 of them being active, whats the point in trying to keep the game alive.

Remember when the game has 200,000 accounts (yes most people had more than 1 account).

Remember when people were scared about 100 incoming battleships.

Remember when the tech tree had multiple paths.

Remember when we had game development every round.

That was a FUN time.

But we are now in a nasty cycle,
1) We need players to fund development
2) We need development to find new players.
3) Jagex: "Screw the first two, lets milk the current player base, because they will pay no matter what".

Jagex will not give up the name of planetarion, until its not cost effective, and thats when player based income is below hosting costs.

So STOP buying accounts passes, and play the game FREEEEEEE!!!!!

And then once spinner finally finishes his game, jump on board.... Remember that....

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

It continues to amuse me that the same people who are painting Jagex as the archvillain in this giant fiasco, are raising Spinner to approximately the same level as Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Might I remind you that AD2460 has been in development for longer than Jagex has owned PA? That is to say, since May 2010, with hints dropped as early as January 2010? A solid ****ing 3 years?

That in those three years, while Jagex certainly hasn't turned PA into a shining beacon of hope for all, AD2460 has received about $230,000 in grants from the Norwegian government, and are now asking for an additional $150,000 in crowd funding to "polish" it? We're talking about a goddamn browser game here!

That the 200 players Jagex is "milking" bring in a grand total of $5500 a year, for a company that has yearly revenue of $70,000,000, which brings about a profit of $16,300,000 a year? That in fact, the most probable reason Jagex are now dropping PA is that PA is quite frankly too much of a hassle to keep running, for practically no gains?

Are you all ****ing insane?

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

I totally agree. As an aside this is the sort of thing I do for a living, so it's easy enough to decide what to do first, you simply prioritize based on difficulty and overall estimated revenue potential and you go from there. Lots of ideas is never a problem, but picking the ones that are going to have the biggest positive impact on the game is a bit of an art, but it can be done and PA could still very well be turned into a game with many 10s of thousands of players and a good profit. This is why I said it was bizarre what the previous owners have done with the game. Carefully done it would not take a major investment to turn PA into something that is both growing and profitable.

I've done this with several products in my own company, so I'm speaking from experience on this one, but until a solid owner with a vision is back in control of PA (good luck LL!) things will never change, and eventually Spinner's game will finally be done and maybe we'll all move over (or not if it sucks!).

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

Thanks for proving my point, they run PA with no development and still get $5500, thats certainly not how much it costs to run the server (which I say they own). So thats still income for nothing.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

They do pay Cin to do some coding and maintenance (I don't know how much but it ain't a killing for sure).

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

I couldn't let this go unanswered, sorry :)

First of all, noone is raising anyone to any level by supporting my move to buy the game which I care about back. Feel free to back up your statement with a quote. There is no need to ridicule others or myself here. And for the record, I'm an atheist :-)

When it comes to AD2460, time and money sort of goes hand in hand when it comes to development, to a certain point anyway. We can deal with the money first if you wish.
AD2460 has a total (roughly) estimated cost of more then 600.000 $. As we are doing things very roughly, I will guesstimate that the graphics alone is something close to 100.000, and we've bought 10 servers so far, with a few more in the pipeline, so I would not be surprised if we end up at about 100.000 in hardware alone. Our hosting alone is a few thousand a month.
We have spent a good deal of time on research as well, as we are using somewhat new technologies to try to build what we have rightfully called "a next generation WMMO". I think the frontpage of the game alone shows more technology, ooomph, graphics and fluidity than all of PA put together.
Yes indeed, we have received about a third from a cultural fund-thingie, I don't see the problem or the relevance. Good for us, good for the quality of the game. The fact that we are way over the initial budget, delayed and not where we hoped to be, we wanted to try raising money through Indiegogo crowdfunding. I don't see a problem there either. The more money we have put into development, the less money is left for the finishing touch and certainly the launch-campaigns.
The biggest issue with the time, delays and slow development, is of course related to managing ManagerLeague at the same time. And ML must always get priority, or we shoot ourselves in the foot.

What you refer to as "a god damn browser game" is no longer what it was back in the days of when Planetarion was made. The standards are so much higher, and we wanted to raise the bar with AD2460. That always costs, both time and money. Heck the complexity of our combat-engine alone far outweighs all of Planetarion, not to mention the visual combat-player.
Whether it will all come together nicely though, remains to be seen (-: Aiming for the stars, so we might at least hit the clouds (-:

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

To back spinner up here a bit, I've been developing software products for almost ten years and not one of them has ever shipped on time. Any time you create something new, especially on a limited budget (and believe it or not $600k is a limited budget), it can be very tough to realistically upfront understand the full cost and efforts to bring it to completion, especially if you are using new technologies as Spinner states.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

For what it's worth, I treated you about as unfairly as other people are treating Jagex on a daily basis. I did that to hold up a mirror to people. You are given all the benefit of the doubt, while Jagex are the 21st century equivalent of the Nazis. Personally, I don't doubt that Jagex really did intend to improve PA when they first bought it, if only because (almost certainly) PA has been (and could have been predicted to be) a net loss for them, when you include cost of acquisition. I'm also sure that you really do intend to create a great game, as proven by the amount of money you've raised.

Until that happens, though, treating you and Jagex as polar opposites is just hypocritical. That is not a criticism of you, so much as it is one of everyone else.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

I think Spinner just told us that he dosnt have the time to run a game like planetarion, and that he is allready over his head with the other two games he is doing.
The fun game play of 12 years back, and the big wow factor is gone, lets just accept that planetarion is a thing of the past, and sadly it dosnt look like there is anyone capable of improving the playerbase in sight for the nearest future.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

A misunderstanding.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

U replying to me? Too early for me to turn on my brain, so i dont know.

I wernt replying to your post.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

well i think Spinner would make time even if it had a 3ed prio ;-) its his baby after all.

from the current playerbase, i think 99% just like more players and i think Spinner could make that happen just by geting the game back.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

my 5 cents of opinion

Spinner is guilty .. of sentimentality, of fairly happy memories and some sort of loyalty to his creation. Lets not roast him for something many of us in many forms are also guilty of.


Through no fault of his own he and the others could no longer care and grow it, he sold it for better or worse for it and himself to survive.

To watch what you created be thrown around without care is hard thing to do, to watch and think, i could have, maybe if this happened etc etc ...

Now if hes in a position to claim his creation back and give it the TLC it requires to survive and succeed then great, if that person/company isnt him then great too, because this game isnt dead, its dying for want of care.

Those of us who care want a good owner for this game with the vision and the *ICU* tools to make it what it once was.
for us I feel its akin to watching the cinema where you had your 1st kiss get abandoned, fall into disrepair and then get torn down and replaced by an office block.
If only everyone had kept going there, if only the owners had kept repairing the building.

IF's, Maybes, possibilities only happen if you act on those thoughts .

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

The way havoc is played is kind of like how the old days of PA were played. No stress, no seriousness, just plain fun. But that's probably mainly due to the fact PA had more players back then.

Maybe as an idea, to bring back the fun in PA, is to have something similar to havoc; more roids and resources. But With the current style of play and taking in to account the current deficit of players, it's like roiding third world countries.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

You obviously didn't play much in the old days if you don't think there was any stress and seriousness. If anything, people are a whole lot more chilled out now.

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You would go to sleep, and Wake up every hour xx:01, cus u had nightmares of massive red screen and a planetarion that went "BURP! TRY AGAIN LATER"

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

No, I wasn't that addicted to the game back then, thankfully. My studies were more important to me than a spreadsheet game.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

And those studies got you a life where you are now addicted to a spreadsheet game. That seems to have worked out well for you.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

There's a difference between addiction and playing for your social contacts. I play for the latter.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

No one seems to remember the 30mintues+ ticks, the downtime each and every night, the rollbacks, etc, etc, etc. Also the complete unwillingness to change (seem familiar?).

On a separate, but seems related issues... Clouds has friends?

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

But you have no friends clouds :P

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Its hard to see PA as it is, however, I do not belive the current crop of players, and maybe not even the current crop of PA Admins are able to wrap their heads around what needs to be done to make this game better and attract more people.

A radical change will be needed, and we who are so set in our ways of doing things will always struggle to find a good balance between new thinking and keeping what we like.

I would say scrap PA as it is, or keep it running while a PA 2 is being developed to fund development. Only that way might we be able to achive a goal of getting more players back to the game.

The petty arguments, the silly moans about tiny tidbits of the game that causes huge annoyance for some is really insignificant to the dire need of the game to change fundamentally to attract new players.

Games have changed over the last decade, we see interactive and good games both on facebook and off facebook that has a lot more graphics and players than PA has, and for PA to adapt to that enviroment, drastic change is needed.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

That's not true. In the time I was away from the game, lots of things changed, as they did just prior to me leaving. The problem was always that the wrong things changed. PA Team changed things either as a knee-jerk reaction to a small (but vocal) minority whingeing, or they changed things to try to "improve" the game without fully understanding what had made it good in the first place.

I truly believe PA Team have always tried to do a good job, they have just been naive about the game and what would actually be an improvement and what would be damaging.

Re: My 2 cents about the future
 

This is a very concerning statement, not because of what it says particularly, but because of the attitude it shows from whoever is currently controlling PA (and as Jagex have decided to offload it, that suggests tto me that PA Team are having a large amount of input here).

The statement shows one of the the two following attiitudes:
1. PAs controllers are small-minded, juvenile people who refuse to let the game return to it's original creator out of bitterness and spite for some unknown reason.

2. PAs controllers are obsessive control freaks and clinging desperately onto control of the game and for reasons of personal glory/power/obsession, are unwilling to let go and allow somebody else to take control.

There can be no reason for making that point to Spinner that has either the good of the game or the good of the community at heart. Now I am not saying that going back to Spinner necessarily is the right thing to do, however as he has past history and understanding as well as a willingness to get involved again, there can be no (legitimate) excuse for not at least considering his proposals. That statement above suggests no such thing is happening which is a very sad, disappointing and petty state of affairs.

My suspicion is that after years of PA being tied up by other people, Lunar_Lamp is now desperate to take it himself and control it, but I would urge him (or whoever decides these things if my suspicion is incorrect) to stop for a while and have a good and proper think about what is best for the game and the community, maybe with some consultation involved, because I can say from my experience since returning, PA is dead in the water once Spinner's new game does come out unless something drastic happens; many of the players still playing have told me they will leave as soon as it starts. At this point in its life, PA needs somebody to actually think about what is best for PA rather than base their decisions on personal desires and emotions.

My short post just turned into quite a long one :-(