The end of Xan?
Name Class Target Type Init
Pegasus Destroyer Corvette Norm 4 Pulsar Corvette Destroyer Norm 5 And, of course, the Pulsar is the only anti De that Xans possess. As they might say in the southern part of my country, 'ere guv - you're 'aving a larf ainchya? I can only hope that these stats aren't final. |
Re: The end of Xan?
Just because there is a race in the universe capable of roiding Xan doesn't mean that Xan is worthless. I have to admit i haven't had a close look on the stats yet, but most races have to cope with ships that fire at their target after they have been shot at themselves (for example: you can do the same to Terrans with your FI fleet). It doesn't mean a race becomes unplayable, it just means you have to change tactics.
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i think its a great idea to give terrans a chance to attack xans for a change.
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It takes over twice the resources invested in pegs to be invested in pulsars to stop the pegs. Even then you can make xans chicken out because they don't want to lose half their pulsars to save their roids, it's just not cost-effective. The peg seems to be a virtual copy of the tzen from r15 with the only exception being that faggoty perriwinkle for ingal defence. The problem is this makes small xan planets virtually unplayable which will be accentuated even more by the fact a lot of people won't go for xan now.
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What JBG said. Although im more inclined to say is this the end for terran with the rediculous ammount of ingal anti de and anti bs. Also zik bs fleets will own you all round unless you invest heavily in the underpowered dragon.
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I'd also like to point out that zik fr owns xans for the start of the round. Which currently means that the number one target for 63% of the universe is 19% of the universe. Although obviously caths are fair game for ziks as well until they get to cr but given the disparities between xan and cath research there's going to be a period of at least 72 ticks in which xans will be annihilated. It looks like roiding with everything is pretty difficult which probably means a fairly zik-dominated round.
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Xan FI owns though :) But i can defnitly see this being a Zik round given the strength of the BS fleet and the rediculous ease to steal ter DE fleets. I might just go zik and not bother attacking, ingal def all round ;)
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Oh my god. Yes, let's make it so that ter can't even attack xan, but oh, xan can't be attacked by zik either (later in the round, unless they manage to steal the right ships) and also cath cr, spectres pwn them. So, the only fleet in the long run which is able to hit xans is cath co, but damn, they're emp :(.
Just because you might like xan doesn't mean they have to be immune to every ****ing attack fleet. P.S ter sucks anyway because of the high amount of ingal anti de/bs |
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Edit: I think they tried to revolutionise the race paradigms this round but they seemed to do it piecemeal. |
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The race percentages don't tell shit at this time imo.
EDIT: Well, they do tell something, but atleast I just picked something and I'm thinking all the time what race to pick. Oh crap, double post :/ JBG, could you delete that other one - thank you. |
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I mean that I just chose a random race without further thinking just to upgrade my planet/get low ID and shit like that. And after that I look at the stats and pick the proper race.
Hope it made sense this time. |
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I'm not too sure how many people do that. Usually I pick my race when I sign up and set all my engineering and research shit in case I forget when the round starts :(
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But I'm a geek so I can't forget things like that :crymeariver:
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If I were xand, I'd just go in a buddypack with 2 ziks. They will be wanting my ships, and I would take their pillagers.
In fact, going on past experience, I would have trouble persuading galmates not to send me their pillagers! :p |
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The only ways to work around this are to make every race immune to everything so that good defence is not needed, to make every ship shoot each other and whoever has most wins, or just to give everyone EMP. :p The only example I can think of where this completeley ruined a round was the r15 tzen/vsh war crime. |
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Truth be told I was going to go xan (lokken's fetish for killing things rubbed off on me (fyi this is why lokken is a great DC but a terrible MO, he can't organise things that don't involve something dying:( ) until I saw this thread and looked at the stats myself. |
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I too was pretty sure about going Xan, until i read this thread, initially I was gonna go Cath but then I decided I liked to kill stuff too much ;)
I was aware that the Pulsar was basically a pricey game of chicken for Xan against Terran (thats if you can actually afford to build enough whilst keeping a balanced fleet) but could get passed that coz it has lots of positives, like FI attacking fleet, low eta, cheap ships etc. However after looking at the Misc screen in game now (ta JBG) the odds seem to be stacked out of favour for the Xan - 32 % Terran and 31% Zik?! Not only does Xan get hit first by terran DE (peg) but also by Zik Fr (brigand) and then there are the BS fleets both again Terran and Zik and you got 1 ship - the wraith. Xans could end up being drains on there allys and gals this round and so become a less favourable choice? It's not that the stats are "so bad" - the ratio of race to race seems totally skewed though. |
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I imagine that PA team will make a final change before the round starts. Without testing ofc.
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Which is where I think xands will have an advantage: a lot of ziks should be going BS, and a lot of terrans might do the same as well. The wraith is a nice looking ship that is well worth investing in and should really sort out most BS related problems, or at least make it so you only need 1 fleet of defence. I'm seriously tempted to play as xand now and just see what's so bad about them, because I think they look pretty decent :p |
Re: The end of Xan?
I suggest you take another look:
Name Class Target Type Init Vsharrak Fighter Frigate Norm 5 Brigand Frigate Fighter Norm 4 I'm guessing this might lessen the temptation somewhat. ;) But seriously - even at the same init Xan would always have to run or die. The only time it pays for Xans to stand "toe-to-toe" with an enemy force is against another Xan and only then if the opponent has the larger fleet. In such battles the smaller force always inflicts more damage than it suffers - probably something to do with the "high damage / low armour" philosophy of the race. This philosophy has to be reinforced by the low initiative required to lessen the damage that will be wreaked when the remaining enemy ships retaliate. In other words, Xan MUST fire first to reduce the losses to an acceptable level. |
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I agree with the issue of the "keeping race characteristics" and I'm shocked that the pegasus is STILL init 4, due to Terrans being 'meant to' flak through defence, not kill it first AND have outstanding armour. I'd change the viper targetting to FR, and raise the peg to initiative 6, or at least 5. |
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Firstly, the xandathrii target will receive salvage for ships he loses and ships he kills, the zik attacker won't (on a few occasions, this has encouraged me to stay at home to destroy an annoying attack fleet). Secondly, it's actually true again that the 'smaller fleet wins'. The Vsharrak kills more than its value, so just have less value at home. Thirdly, an attacking fleet is also likely to contain pods, potentially stolen FR and cutters. This means that whilst the defender can just leave vsharraks at home (Maybe even not losing all of them), the attacker will ahve all those ships stuck in the battle and can suffer significantly higher losses. Finally, a xand can build some lancers if he or she is that desperate to be utterly immune to zik frigs. Basically, I don't get why in a head to head battle between xand vsh and zik FR that the xand is automatically forced to run whereas the zik has no such problems. But had the stats been with a brigand init 4, I would have agreed with you. :p Quote:
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I agree with most of your other comments though. Salvage is the only reason it's ever worth trying to defend your roids (as a Xan) and even then I'd only do it if I inflicted more damage on the attacker than I'd suffer myself. And I'd definitely choose Lancers to defend against Brigands - if I could afford to buy them. I'd need to run a bcalc or two to see if the Vsharrak vs Brigand would be viable with the amended inits. My experience has been that effectiveness of the smaller fleet is reduced by the higher armour of the attackers. Well, like I said in my opening post, "I can only hope that these stats aren't final." Your replies have at least given me hope. :) |
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The only option I see is to combine mass CO with mass FR, but I don't see the point when you're going to need a lot of beetles, and if you've nicked beetles you probably got pods with them. Even if you use a cath wingmate, there's not all that much benefit to either of you to pair up with such a fleet (zik FR + cath CO) |
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It looks like you replied to my last post before I'd finished my major revision of it - my fault for being so slow. ;)
Still, I agree that a Zik Fr fleet wouldn't choose Xan as a target - I just don't see that as being a problem. The "rock/paper/scissors" is supposed to be Xan>Terran>Cath>Xan - Zik don't even appear in there before they have stolen a fleet or two - and then they can pick their targets according to their (stolen) fleets. |
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LOL
Well, that explains why it doesn't seem to be working very well. :) |
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looks like Xan's have the easy life now :) nothing that fires against Fi, that it dosnt target,... unlike every other attacking fleet
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Gives them a way to replace all the roids they will be losing to terran de fleets.
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So - hands up everyone who is going to play Xan. (The real question is whether to go for Cath or Zik). <Edit> Oh, did I forget to mention that Xan Fi attack fleets will always suffer heavy losses if the target leaves ships at home? |
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See previous comments about the fragility of Xan ships when fired upon. It's even worse when attacking (no salvage).
I'm still not seeing any useful input about whether to choose Cath or Zik. ;) |
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I suppose I like Cath because they have 2 anti DE fleets, 2 anti BS fleets and since 63% on the universe is either Zik or Terran it makes sense , and they also have anti FR for zik that zik don't target so not too bad there either. However, offensively I am not so sure about Cath. cath has CO fleet to attack with most of the uni being Terr / Zik this is poor coz both Zik / Terr have 2 options to def CO. Cath CR looks better as it appears to be a numbers game of taras v's chims and roach (with some BW's?) v's pirate. Its way passed my bed time but just my 2 cents. With regards to choosing Zik thats easy - i can't (& don't like to) play them :salute: |
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So, beetles. Last round, xandathrii fighters were weaker and the beetle was stronger. Yet, inevitably, we ran into an unvierse were cathaars were being mindlessly roided by fighter masses (except for the few top caths, the Omen 1up war pretty much prooved your claims rather ineffectual in practise), even though there was a solid beetle and shadow and brigand (that were zero-loss) around. Cool, right? At the same time, cathaar was getting "free roids" because of the "effective recluse" and "poor banshee". This round, the major difference between cathaar to last round is, that cathaar have no viciously strong zero loss kill ships (scorpion, mantis) that covered 4 pod fleets single handedly with half assed investments. Ri-ight, the corvette fleet is good, but it won't be of comfort when you're roided, raped, roided, raped, structure smashed, roided, and raped. (seriously, jim, seriously). What, terrans. Yeah, I heard terrans are ace because 18% of the universe are xandathrii and have absolutely no antidestroyers. NEWSFLASH VERSION 1.0, terrans have no antifighters to speak of any higher than pulsars. What does this mean? If we assume, cogito dumb, that a terran can roid a xan for free he's really getting it right back at his face. With the following differences: when attacking with fighters, you do not need to worry about a zero-loss defence ship that runs faster than your attack fleet (harpy hi hi), nor two other zero-loss defence ships (say hi to wyvern and pillager). Okay okay, you take damage if they leave ships home. On the medium level nowadays, most people have the brains to dodge their fleet. On low level, all don't have antifighters because "xandathrii is so shit". On top level, it's called idiotic suicide if you leave your 500 brigands home so you can smash a few xandathrii fighters to successively get owned in the face *and* roided anyways. Now, when you figure out another attack fleet in addition to destroyers that can roid xandathrii for free, toss me a note. It's not easy. On the other hand, you might not want me to get started about what can roid a cathaar. Really. Now, when we get started about zikonians. Fair enough, the battleship fleet is very good with the ability to bounce a lot of defences. Beyond that, you'll have trouble, but that's just characteristic for zikonians. The fighter/corvette/frigate axis is strange, and in my opinion the frigate fleet is weird. Right, we shall see, the possible problems zikonians might face is the boom of anti-battleships (dragons, wraiths, buccaneers, roaches) which would result from the fact that both zikonians and terrans (as said, 63% of the universe), invest more or less into battleships (so closer to 50% of the universe would have battleships as their main fleet). After that, you're left with a shit frigate fleet (sorry kids), and your skills. This is where you cut the difference between the players. Terrans. Yeah, pretty decent. It's just the fact that fighters and cruisers will cause trouble. And kids that have more dragons than you do, should you have invested heavily in destroyers. Interesting bits though, I'd rank it fighting pretty good with zikonians for the "second best race of the round" award. Ah well. I'm bored at work, and wanted to take out a little aggression, rant off. .edit. typofix |
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My myself are considering building a 1337 Terran FI roiding fleet or a Cath DE roiding fleet. Im abit unsure about the Xan CO roidingfleet as I still havent found their CO roiders. :crazyxmas:
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Keizari is pretty much right on. Xan have dropped back into the pack as far as far as self-defence is concerned, but they aren't a bad race per se. While this will certainly be a different round for xandrathii now that they have a wide open hole in thier defences, an effective fi roiding fleet means that xans shouldnt have to rely on roid hoarding and can replace them at a reasonable rate. So xans are pretty much in the same boat as ter or cath, can be roided, but can roid back.
This may however mean that xans will have a hard time outbuilding caths as well as previous rounds so co and cr roiding fleets may be more effective on xans for longer into the round. I do think there are going to alot of active terrans in the universe, so the peg threat is very real, but de is easier to get defence for than fighters so it probably is a wash. More threats = more targets. Its frustrating for those used to playing xandrathii where how you design your defence and not the innate stats determine who will attack you, but just because xan have holes in thier fleets like everyone else doesnt make them less playable than everyone else. |
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Cathaars tend to suffer from fluid, warmongry rounds. And the statistics for them aren't (even comparatively) as good as they were last round; and last round it was very hard for caths outside top10/huge galaxies. Quote:
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[quote]Cathaars tend to suffer from fluid, warmongry rounds. And the statistics for them aren't (even comparatively) as good as they were last round; and last round it was very hard for caths outside top10/huge galaxies.[.quote] Certainly if cath have a horrible round it would mitigate any possible change in the xan advantage due to the new stats. Quote:
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Yes in the long run caths will not be able to hit xans, but theres going to be lots of ticks before then where they will be. We both agree that xan is a solid race with good attack options and good defence options. Its just a change in how the race is going to be played to have a vulnerability to terran de coded in. |
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Generally, though, you can do stronger passive defences as xan spending less resources to defence ships than you have to spend as cath, zik, or terran. This is why xandathrii attack fleets are usually large in compared to their values. The destroyer vulnerability is a bit of a pain yeah, but generally other races have more vulnerabilities. Especially cathaar.
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I'm wondering just how terrible this vulnerability is.
For example, pegs kill pulsars at 75% efficiency, but vsh kill chimera at 83% efficiency... As comparisons: Round 15 tzen killed vsh at 100% efficiency. Round 17 shadow killed mandrake at 69% efficiency. So it's somewhere 'in between', and I don't think it will completely screw the round for xands. Particularly considering how happy ziks will be to get their hands on free ships. Particularly barghs! |
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