Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Warning long post

This round I have seen massive co/fi fleets being unstoppable with no need for players to build other

ships. I have thought about addressing this ship inbalance as perhaps many of you have. Here is my

suggestion.

What if co/fi were able to attack cr/bs however cr/bs cannot attack co/fi. At first this seems a bad

idea but bare with me on this and all will become clear.

The main point in my idea:
1)co/fi can attack cr/bs with small damage. Attack themselves with good damage and attack fr/de with

average damage
2)cr/bs with their big guns but low tracking speed cannot attack co/fi. They can attack them selves with

good damage. They can attack de/fr with excellent damage
3)fr/de can attack co/fi with excellent damage, attack themselves with good damage, attack cr/bs with

average damage.

Examples of why this is a good idea:

-If you have just a co/fi fleet you are extremely vunrable to low numbers of fr/de due to the high

damage caused so that is not a good idea (ie a high value co/fi fleet can be destroyed by a low value

fr/de fleet).
-Having just a de/fr fleet you are extremly vunrable to cr/bs due to the high damage they cause with low

numbers to fr/de (ie a high value fr/de fleet can be destroyed by a low value cr/bs fleet).
-Having just a bs/cr fleet makes you vunerable to a co/fi fleet due to the fact that you cant fight

back.

so let try some combinations
-A fi/co + cr/bs fleet is vunrable to a de/fr + cr/bs fleet
-A de/fr + cr/bs fleet is vunrable to a large cr/bs fleet
Here is where my balance falls down
-A fi/co + de/fr fleet is the weakest and you may as well just have a de/fr + cr/bs unless co/fi are

able to cause high damage to cr/bs ships (in which case it would be excellent against a de/fr + cr/bs

fleet. The way this could be understood is that fi and co have large rates of fire and are cheap so

large numbers can be built and fire a mass volley which cr/bs cannot avoid but fr/de with their speed

being faster than cr/bs can avoid and when they fire back the co/fi are in trouble.

This idea perhaps needs some work but what do you think.
Main ideas are:
-bs/cr are very vunrable to co/fi
-co/fi are very vunrable to fr/de
-fr/de are very vunrable to cr/bs

In order to have an effective attacking and/or defending fleet you would need to build all ship type.

Large co/fi fleets could not be used on their own because de/fr kill them easily. Large cr/bs fleet

could not be used on their own because co/fi can kill them easily and being unable to fight back.

Note that this is purely an idea for the structure of classes to prevent massive favouritism of one ship

type - ie you need a diverse fleet. Other tactical ideas which I may discuss in the future involve

different races being specialised in different areas and restrictions added and other things.

Oh and please don't comment on any bad spelling and/or grammer. I have fast typed this and I am only

human :p

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

No.

The problem this round was just the awful shipstats which were also not aided by the alliance situation.

also what are you suggesting, a general set of stats or what?

i dont really get it, and i dont think i really want to in all fairness.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

The best way to force people to spread out resource allocation is to limit the effectiveness of any one class of ships and force them to build multiple ship classes to attack effectively and defend effectively. There are lots of ways to do this with the stats, and this should have been done this round but was not. For the stats for next round we are addressing this issue, and you should see a lot less single class fleets then this round. You can join us in #pastats if you would like to help in this effort.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

bring back single targetting please

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Silence, Mek. Single targetting takes away a lot of the actual thought that goes into stats and fleet composition - if you've got one ship that targets one other ship, decisions about which ship is better for which purpose become largely redundant. ST doesn't solve anything - just takes away another of the more interesting and strategic aspects of the game.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Well now I look back at what I wrote I realise I haven't made it that clear. I did mean adjusting ship stats and a definitly did not mean a general set of stats for all races. I just meant that any de/fr ships that are able to attack fi/co should be able to cause large amounts of damage. Any cr/bs ships that can attack de/fr should be able to cause large amounts of damage. Then I added the possibility of co/fi being able to attack cr/bs to rule out an all cr/bs being successful.

Different races might have more ships of certain type then others, or be specialised to cause more damage to certain ship types, or have other specialities that make them unique.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

I don't honestly think this round stats even were so bad. It's just that people didn't use them right.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

How people use the stats determines how good they are.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

These types of ideas have been suggested in the past, and I think there is some merit to the idea. One idea I have suggested is a "Civ IV" style damage system. Where all ships have a base damage/EMP gun value, and a base armour/EMP resistance value, but then these values are modified by bonuses against certain classes, or in certain scenarios. So in essence all ships would target "all" but how much damage they would cause and receive would be very much dependent on what type of ships they were fighting. So for example there could a a corvette that has a 25% damage bonus when attacking or defending against BS/CR but a -25% armor bonus when defending against FI/CO.

The problem with any of these ideas is they would require a total rewrite of the combat engine, which probably needs to be done, but that would require significant vision on the part of zPeti, not to mention a lot of coding work.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Basicly the fleet eta differences makes people choose fi/co. Aslong as you cant def with bs/cr why choose them, when they cant make to the battles on time.

BS/CR could actually move faster on longer distance, without need to refuel and due they are sort of battle stations, they can do their living and arming while traveling.

Fi/Co ships could move faster the short distances instead, since they are fast to prepare to arms and they are mobile moving on places known ie ingal, in cluster. Battle stations again can have better radars and scanners to find out best ways to move outside clusters.

in short, change the eta formules, perhaps easy solution is to bring back the cluster etas and even planet etas, so that ie 1:1:2 and 3:4:2 gets the reduced eta. That way u can make to def people with bigger ships also.

Also imo we need more choises to build fleet and arm our base. Not only these 6 ship types.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Well it was just a rough idea and like I said, it would need some smoothing out

I was trying to think of reasons you would need every type. Why would you need destroyers, they would be very effective against fi/co. Why would you want cr/bs, well if lots are building de/fr you would find cr/bs the most effective against them. Why would you need co/fi, well they can attack quickly, will attack first and cr/bs cannot defend against them or dodge them like de/fr can.

@Monroe I kind of had thoughts about new statistics too. I have never played Civ IV but I used to play eva. There are many many things that make ships unique there, armour resistances against, emp, explosive, kinetic and laser weapon classes seperatly, individual ships speeds, turret tracking speeds, firing rates, jamming abilities, but I think in pa all of these would make the game overcomplicated and are not needed though maybe one or two may be nice.

I like the eta idea Ave, fighters faster at smaller distances but slower or even unable to travel at long distances and so needing something like a battleship to transport them effectively. This would also sort of limit the range of you attacks until you reach a battleship tech level which could be good but would also be bad as players will attack people without bs/cr knowing its hard for that defender to attack back.

Hey Monroe, out of curiosity, what is pa's core written in?

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

I like your idea, and it actually makes sense. However it needs to be tested, but hey get your ass in that channel and help, thats what we need!! ;)

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Perl

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Basically its down to the faster ETA of Fi/Co over Cr/Bs is why most people choose Fi/Co.

This: Unified ETA fixes majority of the problems.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

I can see cruisers always hitting fr/de, but whats to stop a T3 for all BS/CR to hit fi/co, after all i imagine a lot of Battleships and cruisers to have flak cannons to target small ships. More diverse fleets would require limits on certain things.
Example: Building a BS/CR fleet would also require you to build a fi/co escort fleet. makes sense since fi/co should be faster and running circles around bs/cr.

Though this does strip down to fr/de/cr/bs ALL targetting fi/co, but shouldnt they be doing that anyway since theyr'e the bigger ships? Solution would be to make fi/co cheaper.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Well I wanted to keep some limitations in. I dont think its good for bs/cr to be able to target co/fi because people might just concentrate on building bs/cr. My idea with co/fi being able to target bs/cr is that they move first and can launch alot of attacks against bs/cr. Then Just as you have said, they would need an escort fleet. You would have co/fi with your bs/cr to help destroy some of the defenders co/fi in the same move and also to have to de/fr along because when they attack the co/fi fleet would be devastated

It all depends on
bs/cr being able to do very high damage to de/fr
de/fr being able to do very high damage to co/fi
co/fi being able to do very high damage to bs/cr (by being able to attack multiple times, fast and first before de/fr can attack back)

This way no one class is strong in everything and no one class type will be successful on its own. You need to have a diverse fleet.


Oh, additional note because I confused people earlier. I mean for the targeting system to be the same, ie ships are only able to attack set ship types as now. But any de for example that are able to target a co or fi should do massive damages. Just to lower the way a player is able to depend on building just one class.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

I don't like having fi/co target cr/bs without them firing back. The suggestion of having big ships fly faster at long distances is interesting, but would require some coding. And I'm not sure what effects it will have on the gameplay.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

Well still even if fr beats fi to pieces, whats the use of it in defence, it cant make to def versus them. It will only make u build it due own defence, or due beeing able to attack easier.

Still people teaming up with löwest eta will be unstobable. And we surely dont want to end the building of fi either :)

Uniqued or even unified etas seems like easiest option to make, but ofc the options are unlimited and surely there are more imaginary ways to sort it out.

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

please do that

Re: Encouraging people to make more diverse fleets
 

More diverse fleets will appear if each race can select one ship not unique to their own race. For example as Etd I would have appreciated the ability to build Phantoms or Wraiths to supplement my attack or defence fleet. Perhaps a 144 tick research time can be applied so it comes at a cost to go down this route.