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-   -   [Football] Rooney and Terry and England (https://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=190731)

Stifler 29 Apr 2006 14:38
[Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Haven't seen the conclusions yet, but Rooney picked up what looked like a bad injury and Terry was injured early in the first half and stayed on :(

What would people put as their chances of being in the WC?

If they are out, who should replace them?

Possibly a very bad day for england :(

edit: all in one match :(

Cannon_Fodder 29 Apr 2006 14:42
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Don't know.

Crouch (lol) and Sol (semi-serious)

Without Scolari there was never any chance :(

Treveler 29 Apr 2006 14:42
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
<[LFC]crusie> CARRAGHER & CROUCH!!!

MrL_JaKiri 29 Apr 2006 14:55
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
We'll have to wait and see on the Rooney injury, Terry should be fine.

Stew 29 Apr 2006 14:57
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Terry wouldn't have played on (hopefully) if there was a serious issue, but Rooney certainly didn't look good.

Who would I play if Rooney's only half fit? Err...still Rooney! Better than a fit Crouch that's for sure.

isildurx 29 Apr 2006 15:06
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Terry isnt that serious you have backup players for him ferdinand\carragher is a good centre pair.

Rooney though is irreplaceable, i would prolly go with Owen\defoe or possibly Andy Johnson :P

wakey 29 Apr 2006 15:51
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Terry should be fine but if he isnt I dont think carragher would be the right replacement. Rio can look a little uneasy without a traditional Centre back beside him and carragher isnt really a traditional centre back.

Sol at his best would obviously be ideal choice but hes been a bit shakey for the past 18 months or so and his lack of football recently doesnt help. Wes Brown is another whom fits the bill well and hes done well playing aside Rio this season but again injuries have restricted the amount of football he has been able to play. Ledley King i'm not sure about, I havent seen a great deal of him playing and when I have hes always been playing in the none traditional CB style, probaly why hes been used as DM for england on occasions.

And outside bet for me would be Dawson, he looks a good traditional centre back whos solid, although he's not really had much big match experiance


As for Rooney replacement, im really not sure who could be used, although I think Owens fitness itself is a deciding factor. If Owens fit and plays I think that makes Defoe less of an appealing option as I dont think the two of them differ enough to make a dynamic striek force. However I'm really not sure Crouch is good enough to play from the start, he stikes me as more useful as a sub to shake things up rather than a starter. Someone like Beattie might work well as he would offer the threat in the air and the ability and streagth to hold the ball up but his profress seems to have stalled since joining everton

Nodrog 29 Apr 2006 16:00
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Losing out on Scolari and probably having to make do with some fifth-rate English haddock like McClaren instead, because of your retard farm media, is probably a more serious long term blow all things considered.

Dace 29 Apr 2006 16:05
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
HEY NOD THE PUBLIC HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW AND IT'S THE PRESS THAT HAVE TO GET THE INFO SO STOP BEING SO HARD ON THEM!!!

Appocomaster 29 Apr 2006 16:46
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
tbh, we've got a lot of people with knocks / just recovering from long term injury atm.
I wouldn't want take too many of them.
Rooney apparently "should be ok" (according to Jose - HA!) but with Owen only having played 1 1/2 games, and Sol only having played a few, and Terry having this knock etc... - apparently G. Neville picked up something too.

btw, Crouch does the whole physical thing / holding up the ball - which is what you said Beatie would do?

Luckily most of the midfield are ok. Anyone care to name their first 11, together with positions?

Stew 29 Apr 2006 16:48
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Robinson

G Neville Terry Rio A.Cole*

Beckham Lampard Gerrard J.Cole

Rooney Owen

* Came through reserve game well apparently.

So, not exactly an 'out here' prediction.

furball 29 Apr 2006 18:05
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
The first team as Stew posted is pretty obvious really, it's been set in stone for months.

Worrying XI:

Code:
                        D James

  L Young      S Campbell      R Ferdinand  W Bridge

O Hargreaves    P Neville      J Jenas      K Richardson

                E Heskey    P Crouch

Appocomaster 29 Apr 2006 18:17
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
why are they the worrying 11?

the problem with the midfield is that gerrard and lampard perform similar roles at club level. unless they take it in turn and one goes forward and one hangs back depending on who is where, you're going to always leave one out. imo gerrard > lampard.

I think Crouch will take a part in most games. He's pretty strong and has improved this season for liverpool - he's nice and tall and so a good target man for crosses and long balls, whereas owen and rooney, to be fair, are a bit shorter.

We still don't really have someone who can belt down the left and get a cross in.

Stew 29 Apr 2006 18:26
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I think Crouch will take a part in most games. He's pretty shit.
Fixed.

wakey 29 Apr 2006 18:30
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
tbh, we've got a lot of people with knocks / just recovering from long term injury atm.
I wouldn't want take too many of them.
Rooney apparently "should be ok" (according to Jose - HA!) but with Owen only having played 1 1/2 games, and Sol only having played a few, and Terry having this knock etc... - apparently G. Neville picked up something too.

btw, Crouch does the whole physical thing / holding up the ball - which is what you said Beatie would do?

Luckily most of the midfield are ok. Anyone care to name their first 11, together with positions?
Crouch for someone so tall seems to get dominated in the air on a fair amount of occasions. Also for someone so tall hes pretty weak in the air and that causes a problem as players seem to feel they have to play the ball in the air to the tall guy. Hes actually a better player when outside the area facing the goal with the ball at his feet as he has pretty good touch

wakey 29 Apr 2006 18:31
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
Robinson

G Neville Terry Rio A.Cole*

Beckham Lampard Gerrard J.Cole

Rooney Owen

* Came through reserve game well apparently.

So, not exactly an 'out here' prediction.
While thats the team Sven will probally go for, its a team I dont personally think is upto competing with the best even when fully fit. And its not a personnel issue either as thats pretty strong its more the positioning factor.

As Appoc meantions Lampard and Gerrard are both at their most comfortable being the midfielder that breaks forward, Gerrard seems to get used in in the DM role more for england and he just never looks up to it. I would mcuh rather have a proper Defensive Midfielder such as Carrick in place of Gerrard (Lampard is the better of the two players atm).

I also have a bit of an issue with Joe Cole, hes a great talent and hes starting to fulfil some of that promise but playing as a left winger he unbalanced the side too often, he wants to be inside and comes inside way too often thus narrowing the field. With Beckham also thinking hes plays central over the last couple of years as well that leaves us without any width

Treveler 29 Apr 2006 18:50
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
I would go for:

Robinson

Neville Carra Rio A. Cole

King
Gerrard J. Cole
Lampard


Owen Rooney

Gerrad and Lampard dont do well as a pair in center mid field as none of them is a typical defensive midfileder and both like to be in charge of the game. King has done well for england in the defensive position and with Gerrard out right, the midfield will be very well balanced.

Unfortunately for England tho, there is no way the swede will drop Becham.

Stew 29 Apr 2006 18:53
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Ledley King isn't going to be fit though is he?

wakey 29 Apr 2006 19:29
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
Ledley King isn't going to be fit though is he?
Touch and go apparently. He proball wont play before end of season but if hes anywhere near being fit Sven will no doubt take him.

Although Id much rather see Carrick play in that role rather than shoehorn another player into a position thats not really his.


As for Treveler's lineup of playing gerrard out on the right, are you serious? Beckhams hardly in the form of his life atm but atleast hes a player accustomed to playing out on the right. Gerrard has all the problems that Beckham has when out on the right (wanting to be inside, not being lightning quick, not having outstanding footwork/dribbling skills) as well as having the problem of simply lacking the crossing skills of Beckham. To me you end leaving Gerrard playing in a position that nullifies his attributes and simply wastes a place in the team.

We really need Wright-Phillips out there but with him choosing to get paid loads of money to warm the bench this season any chance of him being considered or ready for it are out of the window

Ste 29 Apr 2006 19:34
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
i'd ALWAYS play carrick over King in the defensive midfield role.

And I'm not jumping on the "beckham is shit" bandwagon.

eJohn 29 Apr 2006 20:30
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
bandwagon/truth.

g neville picked up an injury as well. What a couple of days for england :)

MrL_JaKiri 29 Apr 2006 20:40
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
bandwagon/truth.
Bandwagon/truth = 47.

furball 29 Apr 2006 20:54
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
As for Treveler's lineup of playing gerrard out on the right, are you serious? Beckhams hardly in the form of his life atm but atleast hes a player accustomed to playing out on the right. Gerrard has all the problems that Beckham has when out on the right (wanting to be inside, not being lightning quick, not having outstanding footwork/dribbling skills) as well as having the problem of simply lacking the crossing skills of Beckham. To me you end leaving Gerrard playing in a position that nullifies his attributes and simply wastes a place in the team.
Isn't he playing on the right for Liverpool at the moment?

MrL_JaKiri 29 Apr 2006 21:29
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Isn't he playing on the right for Liverpool at the moment?
He has indeed been playing on the right for liverpool.

Appocomaster 29 Apr 2006 21:55
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Not all the time - he was central today for a lot of the time, but he doesn't get crosses in.
If we're having target men up front, we NEED people to get down the wing and cross. At the moment, the group of decent crossers playing for England in the 'first team' consists of Beckham - though Neville and Cole aren't bad at getting down the flanks either.
However, if we don't have anyone up front like Shearer/Sheringham good at hitting the net from crosses, then there's no point in spending all the match knocking crosses in.

Owen profits more from diagonal balls past defenders that he can run onto (though less of late from hamstrings) than from crosses to head in, although he's obviously scored a fair through with his head.

I'd really love seeing Beckham what he does best - working the right flank, making tackles if he has the oppertunity and acting as the first line of defence for Neville, but really making space and exploiting it.
The minute we have 4 midfielders trying to play down the center, space is wasted down both flanks and everyone gets in each other's way, with no real options.

I wonder how much Joe Cole can get down the flanks. With perhaps a slightly more defensive line up, what about exploiting Jamie Carragher's flexibility and putting him down the left with Ashley Cole? I'm not sure which would be a winger and which would be a defender - Cole often ends up too far forwards and gets caught at the back, but it'd be an interesting idea. I know that Jamie players more as a centre back these days, but he's played right back before and surely you'd bet on him being able to hold the left flank against just about anyone you'd care to name on his current form?

The big question is: what are you going to do if both Owen and Rooney are not 100% fit? risk them both? Take in Crouch, Defoe or someone else with one of them?

Stifler 29 Apr 2006 22:22
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
News just said rooney has broken a bone in his metatarsal and will be out for about 6 weeks :(

WC is in 7 weeks? cant remember exact date

Appocomaster 29 Apr 2006 22:27
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
:( it's not on any of the news sites.
that's a real real real bugger.
Basically this means he won't be 100% fit for the world cup. He won't be training properly until practically when it starts.
Owen said he had a "dull ache" when he finished. I doubt he'll play a full game in Newcastle's last day of the season.
So basically, Rooney has been playing all season but won't train properly for 6 weeks. He'll be taken, because we're desperate and there's no one like him, but he won't be fit and so won't perform properly.
Owen hasn't played in ages and will only have training to go on to get sharp + fit.
So we need a striker to partner Owen, assuming he's fit and they won't play Rooney as more than a sub. Or he starts matches and doesn't finish them. Either way, we need at least 1, if not 2 strikers to replace these guys most matches?
I know I'm seeming very negative, but tbh last time we were all like "yeah they'll be ok, they're fit really" and they weren't and we were ****ed.
So who will get the nod?

tbh, for better or worse I think that Crouch will.

Stifler 29 Apr 2006 22:34
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
it said on the 10 o'clock news

Stifler 29 Apr 2006 22:51
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
motd just said man u confirmed out for 6 weeks and its 6 weeks till englands first match in the wc

Appocomaster 29 Apr 2006 22:58
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
yes, i see i misread something earlier / it got updated slightly and I didn't notice. :(

So, if he's only going to be 'recovered' in time for the first game, is that good enough to risk? I'm not sure it is tbh. I'd rather someone said "we won't take him unless he's 110% sure he'll be fit and ok for a game" NOW and look at what we're going to do instead than push him to be fit.

cheekybru 29 Apr 2006 23:12
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
:( Totally hating today

NEWSBOT3 29 Apr 2006 23:33
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
its not as if we need our good players during the group stages anyway.

Blastoderm 29 Apr 2006 23:35
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
I don't seem to care that much.

They'll cure Rooney like what they did to Beckham back in 2002.

Appocomaster 29 Apr 2006 23:38
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ls/3914143.stm
this bbc thing only has 18 slots?
I know he has to select a 23 man squad by may 15th or whatever, but does he then have to knock it down to 18?
I really don't pay enough attention, but 18 is a really small number, and you're stuck with having an extra man for def / midfield / striker / goal, then choose another 3 players - i.e. one goes short. As it's risky with only 2 keepers in a squad, either you only have 3 strikers, 5 midfielders or 5 defenders.
Please tell me it's 20 or 21 or so?

Appocomaster 29 Apr 2006 23:39
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I don't seem to care that much.

They'll cure Rooney like what they did to Beckham back in 2002.
When he broke his foot and 'recovered' ?
Beckham was really not at top form. This is what I appear to have said in about 3 posts already this thread :s
you can say 'oh they weren't ready for the heat' etc, but really...

1-X 30 Apr 2006 00:37
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I know he has to select a 23 man squad by may 15th or whatever, but does he then have to knock it down to 18?
Quote:
Originally Posted by from Article 25 of the FIFA regulations
Each association that qualifies for the final competition shall enter 23 players (three of whom shall be goalkeepers).

The final list of 23 players shall be submitted to FIFA by no later than 15 May 2006. Only these 23 players will be permitted to compete in the final competition.

A listed plater may only be substituted in the event of serious injury up until 24 hours before the kick-off of his team's first match, after FIFA has received a detailed medical assessment, and only after acceptance and confirmation by the Sports Medical Committee that the injury is sufficiently serious to prevent the player from taking part in the competition. The association shall then immediately nominate the substitute and inform FIFA accordingly.
To me, this says that Sven takes a squad of 23 and that he can take Rooney and Owen etc knowing that if they're not fit by June 09, he can get emergency replacements.

Rooney might not be fit for the first match (Jun 10) but he shouldn't be needed against Paraguay and Trinidad. He could be fit/on the bench for the Sweden Game (Jun 20) or even wait until the next round. (First 2nd rnd match isn't until 24/25th)

Opi 30 Apr 2006 00:54
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Please tell me it's 20 or 21 or so?
You're allowed to bring 23. I guess 18 is for the starting eleven + subs?

Would be a pity if Rooney can't play(properly) at the WC, he's one of the more fun England players.
I don't really see a problem with playing both Gerrard and Lampard. If they were absolutely unable to adequately handle the defensive work, maybe you could take out one striker for a defensive midfielder. Not really 4-4-2, though. :)

1-X 30 Apr 2006 01:01
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
no, it also said...

Quote:
23 players shall be included in the starting list for the match (11 selected players and 12 substitutes). Up to a maximum of three of the substitutes may take the place of the selected players at any time during the match.
The only mention of 18 players I can see is that that was the numer allowed for the qualifying matches in the preliminary round on the way to the finals.

Reidy 30 Apr 2006 01:08
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
i've been told tonight owens foot is buggered - dirty mag anyways

furball 30 Apr 2006 01:12
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4017/team0kn.jpg

That's the team I'd now play at the World Cup. Thoughts?

Appocomaster 30 Apr 2006 01:16
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
well, maybe that was it.
the bbc are confusing me :(

so basically you have 3 keepers and 2 sets of outfield players?
which 10 will he take?
and tbh, if rooney is only 70% fit I bet he won't be replaced, as he'll still be viewed as better than any alternative.

It was suggested that he might take (in addition to the 4/4/2 first choice) 4 defenders, 3 midfielders and 3 strikers - a couple of the defenders have been known to play as midfielders anyway, so ...

Appocomaster 30 Apr 2006 01:23
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4017/team0kn.jpg

That's the team I'd now play at the World Cup. Thoughts?
Kirkland has been injured a lot - James has been pretty steady and playing week in week out.
who are your extra 5?

while Gerrard and Lampard are both great at getting forward and spreading the ball, I don't think they're *that* forward - you really need someone else to support Owen.

iirc when Man Utd did something similar, when the ball was crossed from one flank in addition to what would be Owen you'd always have another couple in the box - the winger and one of the central midfielders getting forwards.
Lampard and Gerrard are usually edge of box guys that like to pass it around and shoot from just outside the penalty area, they don't get in the box. The problem is we don't really have anyone to "fill" the gap properly and support the striker - basically, Gerrard and Lampard are still performing pretty similar roles (for the record, unsurprisingly, I think Gerrard edges it but can possibly tackle better so gets the defensive midfield role).
I know it sounds harsh, but if one of the two of them got injured so we could take in a proper defensive midfielder, it'd make life so much easier :p

Not sure which of the players atm would be best apart from Rooney if we're going to have 1 striker and someone playing deeper?

furball 30 Apr 2006 02:07
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Kirkland has been injured a lot - James has been pretty steady and playing week in week out.
Yeah, ignore Kirkland, I had already uploaded to imageshack before I changed my mind. Laziness prevailed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
who are your extra 5?
Green, Campbell, King if fit (alternatively Hargreaves, solely for his versatility), Jenas, Bent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
while Gerrard and Lampard are both great at getting forward and spreading the ball, I don't think they're *that* forward - you really need someone else to support Owen.

snip
The BBC formation isn't perfect, it was just to show the merits of a 4-1-4-1 approach with our players. Besides, all four of the attacking midfielders are able goalscorers. Gerrard scored two today, Lampard has scored sixteen league goals this season, Beckham creates loads as well as taking free-kicks/penalties, Joe Cole scored a great goal today as well as eleven in total this season. We CAN score goals as well as provide the ball to Owen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Not sure which of the players atm would be best apart from Rooney if we're going to have 1 striker and someone playing deeper?
There's no point playing players who aren't international class when we have eleven international class players available. We need to change our formation to suit the players, not change our players to suit the formation.

We have four great defenders, a shed-load of midfielders and only one remaining half-fit competent striker. We're playing 4-5-1.

Cannon_Fodder 30 Apr 2006 08:12
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
We have four great defenders, a shed-load of midfielders and only one remaining half-fit competent striker. We're playing 4-5-1.
Agreement.

Shame Henry doesn't play for England really...

Ste 30 Apr 2006 11:14
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
To me, this says that Sven takes a squad of 23 and that he can take Rooney and Owen etc knowing that if they're not fit by June 09, he can get emergency replacements.
Quote:
the injury is sufficiently serious to prevent the player from taking part in the competition.
I don't think we'd be able to do that either.

roadrunner_0 30 Apr 2006 11:25
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4017/team0kn.jpg

That's the team I'd now play at the World Cup. Thoughts?

if you were going to play that formation i would play crouch alone up front, i know people dont like him but there is already plenty in that team who can run at the defence so crouch would give a different option rather than owen

isildurx 30 Apr 2006 11:30
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Crouch is useless ffs, Beattie or Johnson are betetr choices.

Appocomaster 30 Apr 2006 11:36
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Beatie isn't even mentioned in the bbc thing :p

Appocomaster 30 Apr 2006 11:46
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Also, furby I don't think you got my point.
While we'd have many attacking players with your lineup, we'd only have 1-2 targets in the box. This really isn't enough! I admit I've not watched Joe Cole much, but with regards everyone else, beckham never really gets in the box, and neither to gerrard and lampard.
That'd leave owen / whoever in there practically on his own with everyone else outside the penalty area trying to thread a ball in. We really need another person more "up front" that can get in the box and play more as a link man. I understand that we do have decent players and a 4 5 1 might allow us to play the most at once, but owen's pace lends itself to counter attacks and goal poaching, and he has no one to poach them off / work off.

furball 30 Apr 2006 12:22
Re: [Football] Rooney and Terry and England
 
Crouch's goals to shots ratio is something like 7%. Most decent strikers have a value of about 20%. That should say it all.


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