[Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool
Excellant article, all the people jumping on Liverpool / Rafa after Tuesday should read this.
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1 goal against Hungary. 3 goals against Jamaica. 1 goal against Trinidad & Tobago. 2 goals against Greece. 2 goals against Andorra. 1 goal against Macedonia. Not exactly the greatest teams in the world. I'll grant you that he's rather effective against Championship-class defenders, but he was dominated by Toure and Senderos last Saturday in Liverpool's FA Cup match against Arsenal. Every time the ball was lobbed up to him one of those two either got the first touch, or the second (after he won the header) as an Arsenal defender took the ball off him. Anyone who can afford to pay £12m for Crouch can afford to buy someone better. Simple. |
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He's "forgetting" the ammount of money Rafa has used to buy the players he can now muster (not mentioning that he got Gerrard, Gallagher and Riise for instance from Houlier).
He have been given more time /and money) than most managers these days to assemble the team he wants. If that team fails after the years and millions, its his fault. |
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I think people are going a little over the top. It's only halfway through the season and they are third in the league. Yes, they are out of both cups to Arsenal but that in itself is not a disgrace, although the manner in going out was. they've also reached the last 16 of the Champions League and if they don't go through it's because they will have lost to arguably the best team in the world.
What is the problem? |
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He hasnt had that much money really |
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78 million spent, 92 if you include cisse who arrived under him but was clearly a houllier signing.
Liverpool have never beaten a top side by more than 1 goal. Its harsh, but if they want to be any more than the 4th best team in the league, rafa's gotta go. |
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I should bookmark this for when Rafa brings us the elusive number 19! :) |
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you are actually deluded. Whats the difference between arsenal/man utd and liverpool?
Arsenal and Man Utd have systems. A player can get injured, and they play the same way. Everyone knows where they are meant to be in the team, and subsequently you maximise the output of the eleven players you have on the pitch. This happens when you have good training, and a good formation, and a good understanding. With liverpool (and chelsea, may i say) this isnt the case. Its a team of individuals that mostly dont understand the complexities of the positions they play and subsequently they play below their capability. They arent a unit in the same way as arsenal and man utd are - those two attack as a team, give and go, good movement, great positional awareness. This comes down to coaching, consistency, and training. And its simply not happening at liverpool. |
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Arsenal and man united have also had their managers for 10 and 20 years... So they have built the teams exactly how the manager wants.
The only reason chelsea has won 2 league titles in 2 years is because of "the russian's" money, which judging by the latest headlines is starting to backfire on Jose, they can pretty much be put down to an anomaly pretty much. Rafa has been at liverpool only 2.5 years and I am extremely confident that if Rafa had been at Liverpool as long Wenger has been at Arsenal, Liverpool would be a far superior team. He has been at Liverpool 1/4 of the time Wenger has been at Arsenal and won more European trophies and at Liverpool 1/8 of the time as Ferguson has been at United and won the same amount european trophies. Lastly, I can confidently say that Rafa will bring us the title next season or the season after. |
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Liverpool (I'm a fan) haven't, imo, got good enough players to win the championship at the moment but that's no reason to get rid of Rafa for heaven's sake. He hasn't had the time that Wenger or Fergie have had, nor the money that the tosser of Chelsea has had. Let's compare our progress to, say, Tottenham or Newcastle.
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Liverpool have not "lost" a single player to another club - with the possible exception of owen, who is shit anyway, under benitez - all the sales were at liverpools choice. There has been an incredible turnaround and flow of money going through the club, in and out. Its his team, and he has still no real "mark" on the club. Nominally liverpool play a 4-4-2, almost by default - but every team he puts out seems to be makeshift. There is no real system.
edit : were liverpool a tottenham or newcastle sized club or had spent about the same as them, your point would be valid. But its an ambitious rich club with very ambitious fans, and comparing them to someone like spurs or the geordies is a bit of an insult, really |
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If it's looked into, I bet Rafa has spent more money per season on players than Wenger.
But he complains about cash problems vs Wenger: http://www.teamtalk.com/football/sto...828835,00.html Can someone find a webby where the various managers transfer activities are listed? |
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www.soccerbase.com lists pretty much almost all the transfers, it doesnt know ALL the prices though but its the best source i can find.
interesting site actually. Also i already did all the math dont you trust me? :( |
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Saying liverpool are superior to arsenal because they won the european cup and arsenal didn't is just beyond silly. Especially when it comes to the manager.
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I think this rotation is something that has spawned as a result of the champions league win. He certainly seems to have become paranoid about his players being tired. The fact is you settle into the league, and then you rotate against the non-entity sides at home.
I think Liverpool need to go back to playing negative football with Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko in the centre when they are fit. Simply because such a combination was so effective in glossing over liverpool's real weaknesses and being a huge barrier to stop sides and more importantly, it'll get them results away from home. I for one hope he keeps rotating. Will help us out no end. |
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An example this season, it is well known that Rafa wanted Kuyt and Alves, and we did agree a fee (not 100% sure) and then his club increased their demand by ~£1.5m at the last minute or they just gave a fee of ~£1.5m more then we could afford, i think its the first option but dont quote me on that. But basicly we couldnt afford both players, so we got Kuyt and Pennent (who is someone Rafa obviously rates but wasnt his preferred choice) As far as Bellamy is concerned he had a £6m release fee and his purchase is being offset by the future sale of Cisse |
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In general agreement with the article until it gets to: In Kuyt, Agger, Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissoko and Bellamy, Benítez has spent his money extremely wisely, while Pennant and Gonzalez still have the potential to join that list.
Thereafter Deffeh speaks the truth. |
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Someone else will have to get the rest of Arsenals signing if you really want to |
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I'm just saying if Rafa had the same period at Liverpool as Wengers 10 years at Arsenal, then I'm confident he would have a better 10 years and his team would play just as nice attacking football |
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This year wasn't Carrick the only player Utd bought? And didn't they sell Horseface for like 11 million?
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Incidentally I read this on wikipedia just now Quote:
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Rangers getting rid of le guen was debateable; he clearly didnt have a clue about scottish football and frankly, barry ferguson _is_ bigger than the manager at rangers fc right now, because hes just about their only player worth his salt.
Re istanbul, it was a glorious run and a glorious achievement, but as much as benitez's subsitutions were lauded - why did kewell start in the first place,etc - gerrard and carragher were the real leaders behind that triumph. Dont forget it was benitez that sent out the team that lost the first half 3-0 as well. I dont buy the 'doesnt get his first choices' either - i really cant think of too many players liverpool have been strongly linked with and have been outpriced. Especially given a new stadium is being built the board have been extremely generous to Benitez who has plowed £80million in to a squad that doesnt resemble a team. There are players with sheer class in liverpool - we all know gerrards a world beater - pennant was the best crosser in the league last year - bellamy scored a shit load of goals and has bags of pace for blackburn - kuyt is a real trier and a clever footballer - alonso is arguably the best passer in the premiership - gonzales looked shit hot in spain - kewell was brilliant at leeds and ripped england apart for australia (and you cant just blame injuries) - cisse did nothing after costing £14m and wearing france's #9 shirt why when they come to liverpool do they not perform on a consistent basis and why do they struggle against the top sides? I include Gerrard in this criticism. On paper, liverpools team is ****ing tremendous. Im sorry, but it is - ive been very critical of them recently but aside from wingers, i dont really think there needs to be any signings in the club. Lucas Neill did good at the World Cup but i dont really see the point - the problem with liverpool is that it doesnt matter who comes into the club, its how they play when they actually get there - cristiano ronaldo could join liverpool and suddenly every week would be the loltastic cristiano ronaldo of old with the stepovers to nowhere rather than the world class player he is. I cannot stress it enough times, theres something rotten at anfield, and its all in the system and the lack of team-consistency, both of which are ENTIRELY down to rafa benitez. They dont have a clue how to get the full backs forward - they dont have wingers that hug the touchline and can beat a man and get a ball in the box - they cant defend corners, and they cant attack from corners (though attacking from corners has improved slightly). They dont have a link between the midfield and the forwards even though gerrard and kuyt could both do it. They dont have an understanding between the strikers. Its not even clear whether they want to be a side that attacks through the middle, or on the wings. Its certainly not happening down the wings anyway. I would be happy to see a liverpool team next year that still read carra agger gerrard kuyt crouch pennant etc etc - so long as it looked like they knew what they were doing. Most of them are very talented players who are underperforming and being underutilized. Exceptions : Aurelio - get out. slow, one footed, stupid as a ****ing plank Paletta - Liverpools answer to Du Wei Kewell - hasnt done anything since he came Dudek - let istanbul sleep, and leave it at that Zenden - benitez clearly doesnt want to use him out wide and hes shit in the center Fowler - its over. In terms of who needs to be brought in? Like i said, wingers are the main issue.. but if they went 3-5-2 then riise could do the job as left wing back, and finnan's attacking play has improved remarkably recently - but even still, you would like to see more attack minded players challenging for these positions if liverpool really want to penetrate. |
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Arsenal's transfers 2004/5 - £1m in, £2.6m out 2005/6 - £19.15m in, £13.7m out 2006/7 - £3.4m in, £4m out Total net transfer spend since Benitez was appointed - £3.25m Now, I'll be honest with you. Arsenal made a bunch of signings in the previous season which are easy to forget about - Reyes and Van Persie hardly came cheap. January 2004 transfer window - £13.25m in, £0.1m out. Total net transfer spend from Jan 2004 - £16.5m Over 3 years, that's an average of £5.5m per year. Both Newcastle and Spurs have spent more than that. Liverpool's transfers Now, should I include the Houllier transfers that came into effect when Benitez was appointed? I'm not going to, but for reference: Jan 2004-June 2004 - £14m in, £6.25m out 2004/5 - £19.55m in, £2.5m out 2005/6 - £32.4m in, £9.5m out 2006/7 - £6.7m in, £3.08m out Total net transfer spend excluding Houllier - £43.57m Over 3 years, that's an average of £14.5m per season. Not unreasonable for a club topping the league, but Liverpool just isn't doing that. I agree with a lot of what Deffeh says - the failure of his signings to gel has to fall on Benitez's shoulders. |
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In the first few years of a manager at a club they're going to spend quite a bit getting the players they want surely?
I also think trying to compare Rafa with Wenger or Ferguson isn't helpful. They're both arguably 2 of the best managers the English club game has ever seen (after Sir Brian of course ;)) |
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Liverpool fans make me laugh. Shit in the 90s, shit in naughties until rafa comes along.
You won a european cup. You have won the legue cup, an fa cup (probably something else, I really dont care) You can consistently finish in the top 4. At times you play inspiring football. Liverpool are punching above their weight in footballing terms. I think this is down to two factors. Rafa Benetiz and Steven Gerrard. Take away those two factors and Liverpool are a nothing club. If I was a red scouse fan I would be wetting myself that I have seen them win a European Cup in my lifetime, something that I can only dream of as a Villa fan. I personally believe Benetiz has made some cracking signings, but I also dont buy this whole stuff that Liverpool are on the same level as Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd. At least in footballing terms. Teams dont fear Liverpool they arent the force they were in the 70s/80s. However they are winning what they can with what they have. Then again typical Liverpool fans jumping on the managers back as soon as there quota of one trophy a year doesnt come in. Pathetic. |
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pig is right.
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This is the pecking order of importance as far as cups go in the English Game. European Cup The League The Fa Cup The League Cup The league comes second to the european cup, every f*cking time. As an arsenal fan, you won't admit this of course. Yes you will probably retort with the fact villa haven't won the premiership. Well let me tell you sunshine, football was invented before sky and 1992. It has a history and Villa have won the league numerous times and the European Cup. The Eruopean Cup will always be the most sought after trophy. You can't just buy it. You can't play teams like Sunderland (no offence Jakiri) and Blues every other week to maintain an unbeaten record, you have to play the best and eventually become the best in Europe. Being Champions of Europe is an exclusive club, and by eck it beats winning any league. So your comment is bollacks. |
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool
There's probably a greater correlation between the best team in each league and the winners of the league that year than there is between being the best team in europe and winning the european cup though.
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None taken, if you can't score enough we're kind enough to do it for you.
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His seasons before winning the title were: 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th, 2nd. Quote:
Back in the day when only the champions were allowed in... That's when a european trophy was worth something ;) |
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PS How about team most likely to win a european super league! |
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Anyone can win a cup, it takes consistancy to win the league.
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secondly, it's more complex than that. the background is rather important. For Liverpool winning the European Cup was great victory but it masks the fact that the did shit in the league, which makes up the bulk of their season. If you're not challenging for the title (they weren't even close to third out of four theoretical contenders) then you lose part of the legitimacy of saying you're the best team in Europe. You could go on to say that a poor performance in the league for one anomolous season could be overlooked, but they have done nothing in the league for quite a while so they don't even have that defence. |
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If i was saying 'rafa out' without backing it up you might have a point. (Actually what im saying that he has until the end of the season to prove liverpool can cut it against the big teams. My second point you pretty much make for me - Liverpool ARENT on the same footballing level as arsenal or man utd (or have the sheer firepower chelsea do, but they dont have a system either so im deliberately leaving them out). But i have no idea why you think they shouldnt be, given their past, given their european history, the stadium, the fans, etc etc etc, unless you are just one of these people who dont like Liverpool FC and are going to hold this bizarre notion of '4th is higher than they belong', which in any analysis is just pathetic and wrong. |
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You disagree?
You think winning the league means more than winning the European Cup? No one ever remembers the league winners, they remember the European Cup winners though. Quote:
It was either league or cup. Secondly regardless if Liverpools league form before the European Cup season was shite, that doesn't matter. The rules of the competition states that the top 4 teams in Britain qualify for the tournament. It is certainly harder flying to Bucharest then driving to Bolton, or playing Real Madrid instead of Reading. The European Cup is and will remain to be the watermark for sucessful teams. Chelsea, Blackburn, Man Utd, Arsenal have all shown that if you have money (and perhaps most importantly few teams who can challenge) the league can be yours. I will finish with this quote of stes Quote:
The European Cup is the pinacle of Football. I bet if you asked any European Footballer what trophy do they desire the most, the european cup would be there. Keane wanted to win it so badly (i.e. actually play in it) Legends have been made because of it, and overall there is nothing quite like a European Football night. Great Football, Great Passion, Great excitment. Of course if a team south of New Street could actually ever win a European Cup I'm sure they would stop harping on about how great the league is. A good team win the league. A great team win the cup. |
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool
Re le guen, JBG;
His method of 'adapting' was to publicly criticise the captains role in a football team, which in scotland - especially at rangers with all their die hard blue nose supporters practically pleasuring themselves seeing a ned like Barry ferguson represent the Queens XI - is just ****ing ridiculous. Regardless of problems, ferguson was and is the best player they have in that side, and rangers dont have the resources to replace him, so guess what, your going to have to use him. Le Guen didnt understand this in the slightest. He hadnt cottened on to the fact that in Scottish football, when you have the ball, teams dont sit back like a subbutteo pitch as they do on the continent. You are going to get closed down every second. His signings either flopped outright, or are talented but clearly not suitable for scottish football. Why on earth you would sign a defender like svenson, who cant defend anything in the air to play in the SPL is just murder. The final point is that Rangers more or less had no choice to get rid of le guen - he engineered his own departure probably because he was sick of the SPL already, sick of the huns expectations and wanted to be paid off without having to travel to inverness on cold nights in january. He took the armband off barry, dropped him, and tried to transfer list him to create a situation where the board basically had no choice but to pay him off, in my opinion. If you look at his interview post the motherwell game (the one he dropped ferguson for) he keeps saying "well, barry will be transferred if im still at the club". Those werent the actions of someone who was confident (and perhaps wanting to) retain employment |
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Villa are a big club, you don't hear us banging on about how we should be challenging for the league. We work within our means and go for glory. At the minute Liverpool can't challenge the top 3. They are probably the 4th best in the country, but not in that top tier. The reason why Liverpool fans have this great belief they should challenge to win the league is because of the media. The media make you out to be a far better club than you actually are. It's painful the way the BBC massage your egos. The Liverpool fans are also quite unrealistic. I can't remember one season since 1992 (the year I probably started watching football on a regular basis) when I thought liverpool were going to challenge. Liverpool are a big club. Liverpool should be challenging for the league. Liverpool should be winning trophies. But the sad fact of the matter is that you haven't in 15 years, however you have won a European Cup under this manager, which dwarfs most achievements. I rate him. I really do. Stick with him and see it out. Fergies reign wasn't all roses when he started. |
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1. What you are arguing on is the past, and the 'past ends justify the current means', which is not neccesarily indicative of how a team is going to do in the future. Who is more likely to win the Champions League this year, liverpool or arsenal? Arsenal. Istanbul doesnt help the here and now.
2. Villa dont have the financial clout that Liverpool do, which is a significant element (obviously) in how a team does, and what its realistic ambitions should be. What don you understand about that? Liverpool match arsenal and man utd in pretty much every category you care to invent. There is NO shortage of money available - and will be even less so once the new ground is built*** - and maybe even more if the Dubai thing happens (im not happy about this, though). You are basically arguing the same point as me - liverpool are the fourth best team in the league - but you cant understand that given the resources and eveyrthing else at benitez's disposal that _this isnt good enough_. Under benitez theyve been unable to cut it against the top teams in the league. Unless he proves that he can beat the top teams, he has to go. *** - look what building the emirates has done to arsene's transfer budget - building the new anfield or stanley park or whatever hasnt stopped plenty of funds being made available for benitez, even though the club are struggling to pay for the stadium |
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