Relaying Alliance Channels - is it ok?
Although somewhat sneaky and underhand, is relaying the private channel of an opposition alliance unethical and/or cheating. Discuss
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Re: Relaying Alliance Channels - is it ok?
Yes. It's a perfectly valid means of gathering intel. It's annoying when your channels are being relayed as 1ups were in the past but it's a valid part of the game.
The most frustrating thing is when you don't have your own relay in the channels of the people relaying yours ;) |
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Not only is it a valid means of gathering intel, it's freaking hilarious as well!
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If people prefer to use low tactics then they should imo
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The only good thing about reading private channels is that you can gauge the mood of an alliance and you can see them all flapping about when you attack them.
They are actually pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. |
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Also def calls are frequently called for in private channels so it can offer valuable intel on defence/coverage etc. There's also the inevitable idiots who allow you to put a nick to coords in your arb and possibly announce to the channel that they will be away for a couple of days allowing you to try and ship farm from a planet you *know* won't be running his fleet. |
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zomg dirty 1up with your relaying chans etc. you should all burn in hell!
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It depends if the relay was entered into that alliance specifically to relay. IMO, yeah that can be quite low, but given the current state of ****heads in PA and what they're willing to do *cough*keizari*cough* to win, in relative terms its not. :)
However, I've heard of cases where some alliance HCs have either "kicked" or disgruntled a member - and even though they might have not been in the alliance for 6 weeks or so - are still so completely dumb to not remove that user from their private channels. Oh, and we all remember the opportunity jerome and bwtmc(?) were given in Angels attack rooms a couple of rounds ago. :rolleyes: |
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Relay bots are part of the dark side. Once you cross that line and have sold out, there's no going back.
The issue is more along the lines of how pathetic is it, rather than is it ok. Most people are going to say it's ok becuase they're already doing it, or have done it in the past. It's only not ok when someone does it to them. Edit: I'll agree with The Real Arfy, and add that the people who do it just to get an upper hand, or possibly out of vengeance, really need to get a life. |
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I also fail to see how it's 'pathetic'. I often find this is the response of bad losers when they realise whatever security they had has been circumvented and they have been made to look silly. It's a perfectly valid and useful tactic. Always assume your channels are being relayed and do your best to relay others is the way I look at it. |
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And success is inevitably measured by having a small edge over someone/something in life too, it's just an extension. Bear in mind I'm not saying you'd bug the bedroom of the boss for extorting things out of them but a little bit of extra effort often goes a long way. |
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Stalin proberbly didn't consider eavesdropping, phone tapping, taping people, stalking and reading someone elses mail immoral either it's just a matter of perspective I do think it's a valid tactic tho |
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Fair point you made though. |
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During the recent round, I've both read a relay of a private channel and I'm pretty well aware there's been at least one relay of the private channel of the alliance I've been in. I agree with mazzelaar, it's not really "low" as people seem to describe it, and frankly, I can't remember times it would not have been done at. Probably it's been practised soon since people came up with the idea of using IRC relay in Planetarion enviroments. It's just the ****heads in PA like Arfy who think they're on a moral high ground towards anyone, and are bitter or hold grudge for whatever reason that seem to more or less personally slander on the people who have had such things done. reptalk reptalk reptalk |
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When you invite someone to your alliance, you're taking a risk. You're trusting them not to betray your interests. There is nothing wrong with relaying any channel. Someone who does is breaking that trust, and people have the right be frustrated, aggrieved and angry about it. But they have the right to be that regardless of whether someone breaks that trust. It's just marginally more justified. Personally, I think you're the low one. Invoking mass murderers to win arguments about an online game. Calling people who use effective tactics bad names. That's low. |
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THey do not chose to go into a private channel with a private community where they send personal messages only to get it relayed If people relay channels because of the game it doesn't has to mean it's a part of the game |
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Intel is intel, always has been, always will. Why do people still think that this game should have ethics when the entire point is to blow some poor guy to smitherines. |
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You could compare it with Angels backstabbing Omen.. or LCH backstabbing ND if you like only on a smaller scale It's like a girl dating the wrong guy and then saying "well, it's no wonder he raped you, i'm sorry but it was a risk you took" |
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Agreed. It's a maneuver, like backstabbing. It's not unethical really, it's gameplay tactics. I don't think Angels acted unethically in when they did what they did (or did not what they did not), they just lost some trust there. Quote:
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And your rape analogy is perhaps the worst argument I've seen on AD in a long long time. |
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well in my opinion releying channels is kinda crap and undermines the only solid thing left in the gameplay allies and their communication on irc.
then that is gone whats left? not me atleast |
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In some ways I have no problem with relay channels (it is hilarious when you see someone's reaction in the public channel after having stolen their ships or fleetcaught them). They are one of the reasons the game is slowly dying though (amongst many others). Alliances are less willing to give "unknown" players a go, for fear that they're a spy. Vouching for people to enter your alliance is more about them being trustworthy than it is about them having any kind of skill. Relay channels are all part of that. If people couldn't or didn't, spy, then alliances would be more willing as a whole to allow new players to enter their ranks and learn how to play the game. |
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I guess it was a roundabout way of saying "no, I aren't a hypocrite". Edit: and the biggest reason the game is dying is because it's poo |
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Who cares..
rl ftw! |
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relaying channels is a valid strategy
not that i support it its one of the dirty moves in this game thats like mailing def with false recall messages. offering planet naps or ship jumper offers using spies and more its part of the game but the part i dont like i know we used to filter out spies and use them agaisnt the ally they are spying like send them in a team on a fake mission but the rest sends real and lands but nowadays ppl have so many connections and there are so many leaks in this game that i dont really give a sh** about it and yes we are aware that we have some tw** in our rows |
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Put simply: if having a spy in another alliance report to you is acceptable (morally, ethically or as far as the game rules are concerned) then relaying the channel is also acceptable. The acceptability of a course of action isn't determined by how efficiently you do it. Or is it the case that those arguing that relaying is wrong believe that manually copying/pasting from a channel is acceptable but somehow using a script to do it makes it unacceptable? Any focus on the ethics of it also needs to distinguish between the ethics of the person doing the relaying - and the ethics of the alliance leadership receiving the relay. It is entirely possible to argue a case that in some instances the relayer is ethically challenged whereas there is no such issue with the alliance receiving the relay. There are also two types of spies (an issue Mazz referred to earlier). There's the dedicated spies - who enter the target alliance purely to assist the alliance they work for - and then there's the sell-outs (who usually offer to relay in return for a planet nap). Personally I've always tried to minimise any dealings with the second category - as they're unreliable and have already demonstrated their untrustworthiness. Spies have, in my opinion, been an acceptable part of PA since very early on. Aside from the fact that it would be impossible to prevent or legislate against spying I believe it to be an integral part of the game. Spying definitely isn't against the rules of the game - hence spying can't, itself, be cheating. Is spying ethical? Well PA is (or is supposed to be) a war game. Is war ethical? The entire game is designed for players to carry out actions which would be considered unethical in the real world - hence the total stupidity of the RL reference by an earlier poster. Is it ethical to attack other players and steal their roids/ships just out of greed? Is it ethical to attack others just because their fleet setup compared to your own makes it profitable to do so? The whole "ethics" issue has been grossly misinterpreted by many of the posters in this thread. The only place I see any possible "ethical" failing is where someone in an alliance betrays that alliance for THEIR OWN personal benefit - i.e. the turn-coat type of spy. And whether that's unethical or not would depend on whether you viewed PA a primarily a team game or a solo game. Alliances spying on other alliances is an acceptable tactic - and hence real world "ethics" have no relevance in this GAME. And as relaying is just a more efficient means of manual copy/paste spying all of the same conclusons about its morality apply. I would note that hacking into an irc network (including stealing someone else's P password) is an entirely seperate issue. Not only is the ethics of that dubious it's also a criminal offence in many countries (including the UK). Similarly, using someone else's P identity (even with their permission) MAY, depending on the circumstances, be a criminal act. And of course any criminal act is certain to be defined as cheating by PA team. EDIT: For the tl;dr crowd CN: The ethics of an action in the game can only be judged within the ethical framework of the game itself - not by trying to apply RL ethics to one element of the game taken in isolation. Accordingly, in a game where the entire premise of the game is warfare - and where information is a commodity - spying is an entirely legitmate and acceptable activity. Relaying is just a means of spying and so is also perfectly fine. |
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Spying and relaying are completely appropriate in a war game. I often wonder why some people play a war game and then whine when people use ruthless tactics. In a game based on killing and stealing, spying is hardly low. |
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allies are about to die and with them ofc the game :) |
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Allies were spying on each other since round one. Your point doesn't follow.
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I play alot of game, should i get a real life to then? I have a life, go to college have friends, family but there is no one on the internet that could check if what i say is true. I love playing games, and im not the only one i am sure. For example 6 million people play WoW im sure 100.000 people play more then 100-150 hours a week, should they all get a real life? They have a life else they would be dead dont you think. Its in our nature to be stronger then someone else, in some cases this means doing stuff you guys are talking about. In WW2 do you think they didnt do stuff like that? Spying, militia, every change of information can win a battle so why not use it in this game when information is on IRC to grasp. Always the same every where, people like to be fair and unfair. At work people suck up to the boss to get better jobs, at school people cheat to pass the test. My point is, life is fair and unfair. What you think of life is something else someone else thinks about life. People died to get even the smallest information, information in a strategie game makes that one little advantedge of winning a battle. This is just my opinion. Keep it cool ;) |
Re: Relaying Alliance Channels - is it ok?
Alliance channel relaying is a load of fun, but pretty pointless really unless it's command channels, as all (decent) alliances work on the assumption they have spies in their member channels anyway (a kind of pre-emptive damage limitation), which means there is rarely anything of real value in the alliance channel anyway.
If an alliance knows it's channel is being relayed, then that alliance can have a great deal of fun also. The whole information/misinformation scenario gives more depth and interest to the social side of the game, which is the part that has kept the game going. From an honest, honour-bound gentlemans point of view, relaying is probably immoral, but how many honest, honour-bound gentlemen would play a war-game for the (let's face it: sadistic) fun of it. Ultimately, it makes the game more interesting and adds a dimension that doesn't rely on having the most active members, the most fleets or the most experience. Surely, this can only be a good thing from the perspective of making the game more interesting. |
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i like knowing when to launch my co.
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You spend alot of time posting and playing a game to claim you have a so called life, basically stop playing the 'i have a life' trump card because noone really gives a ****
Your preeching to a crowd that really doesnt care. ty <3 |
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